America’s Crypto Golden Era with Stani Kulechov and Omer Goldberg

Transcript

when you mentioned that I was like man Omar is's sitting right here like don't tell him an AI is going to take his job but we crunch all of those numbers and and really kind of go hand in hand with a on any deployment uh for any asset on any network 100 minute go provides the same revenue for the ABA da as 1 billion USC one of the few Dows that has stood the test of time and continues to innovate welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conver ations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.co Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners imagine if the world's GDP

moved on chain guys say GM to safet the newest protocol by safe isn't a blockchain and it's not a new layer 2 it's a transaction processing Network built to send money anywhere and swap anything on thousands of layer twos from a single Universal balance in sub 500 milliseconds it's fast it's smooth and it's simple and it's built with safe multi-sig level security in mind safet unlocks smart accounts across multiple chains allowing users to supercharge security scalability and speed so get started today at n.s. Global and remember to follow at safe onx gmgm welcome back to the rollup today we

have a very special two guests we have Stan from a of course and Omare from chaos labs and we're going to be talking a lot about A's recent developments umbrella we're going to be talking about what that means we're going to be talking about macro a little bit and the relationship between chaos and a and uh there's been a lot a lot going on in defi as of late we have D AI which is a new development as well maybe we'll touch on that a little bit um stonnie welcome back to the show it's been I think few years uh maybe a little bit of a backstory is uh defi slate was one of the original recipients of an a grants Dow uh grant for defi education

and I just want to say you know that really kickstarted um what is now the rollup so thank you and uh welcome back thank you thank you for having me here and it's uh it's really amazing to kind of like see how how much like time has progressed since then um and I think defi is going um to the right direction but also it's nice to see how a lot of the ecosystem is is maturing as well but yeah good to see you again it's really cool to be here yeah and uh Omare welcome to the show I think first time and uh yeah maybe you can tell the tell the audience a little bit about yourself since it is your first time and we can uh we can get into

it yeah thanks for having me uh glad to be here uh a quick background about myself is spent like the early days of my career um in startups mostly cyber security and performance after that spent about four years at Facebook and Instagram as a tech leading architect again working on security optimization uh performance enhancements and about four years ago we have to start chaos Labs today chaos Labs is the uh industry leader in onchain Risk Management uh primarily Financial Risk Management and we've built a platform that behind the scenes powers uh much of V5 so we have the privilege of working with uh applications like a GMX Jupiter ether fire Renzo

dydx um Venus and and a long list of of great partners and our risk oracles effectively and price oracles stream data on chain so the applications can react in real time to what's happening in the market that's the high level overview and we'll probably get a lot more into it through the pad class but glad to be here absolutely glad to have you here and yeah my experience is I I kind of got my start at trade station was an online stock brokerage and I was I was still in high school at the time it was my first exposure at any kind of global risk management walking in and seeing this this like massive monitor that kind of had all of their uh all of their servers and everything was running it was all it

was all a very elegant system that they had put together um fast forward to now we have blockchains that do a do this at a peer-to-peer worldwide scale which is incredible um and uh and so we'll we'll talk about uh risk management here we'll talk about chaos labs and what kind of work you guys do with a and before uh before we do get into it happy birthday to a turned five years old uh I think just this past week so it has been a lot of time that has progressed uh sonn maybe you could start by talking about you know some of the some of the highs and lows over the last five years and timately that has gotten you to where a is today yeah it's interesting story and

and it feels you know just very recent that we we started build to build a and now kind of like fast forward there's five years uh in the making and AA has kind of a interesting and unique story in the sense that uh even before a uh back in 201 uh 17 and even earlier um we started to basically work on on the idea of democratizing Finance by bringing um lot of these Financial Primitives to one chain and we're talking about timeline where uh ethereum was starting to uh ethereum was start

ethereum was launched in 2015 and it started to get more traction on the application surface and there wasn't really that many directly defi uh protocols or applications in fact the whole terminology wasn't Co yet there uh but there was a lot of interesting things happening and for us what was exciting is that uh we were thinking how we could actually bring these different Financial behaviors uh onto the blockchain and and actually just create better faster stronger finance and this was the time when you didn't have absolutely any liquidity on chain in fact you didn't

have stable coins uh on ethereum uh at that time the only stable coin that existed was uh Teter uh UCT on a separate um Omni chain so it was traded mainly on centralized exchanges so so the world was really uh different back then so I think for the first three years uh we tried to really figure out how we actually built something really appealing uh for the users we had Ean back then which was more of like a peer-to-peer type of a model with smart contracts and um it work up to I think we had at the highest 5 million tvl

which at that time was significant um probably the biggest protocols had 35 uh 40 million uh tvl at at that time but um one of the challenges was actually to uh build something that really creates stickiness for the users and really high utility and I think part of that uh Journey was that uh Co started um pretty much when we launched the uh uh protocol and a lot of people were at their homes you know trying new things trying defy and defi summer kicked in and that was absolutely uh a nice high for for everyone including us

down the line but now the main focus has been uh purely of like thinking what is the average user type on a and how do we make that experience uh and economical behavior um much more better and scale that to a bigger audience uh essentially so it's been quite a uh long path to come here but I would argue um that the most of the work is still ahead of us absolutely there's been you know so much work that you guys have done generating more adoption one of the one of the most widely used applications in defi on ethereum and and not just ethereum but other rollups as well um

even branching out further and it it's it's really demonstrated one of the core Primitives that's available on chain um but there's a lot of changes you've introduced go you you're introducing stable coin economics you you have this robust liquidation mechanism and and there's all of this infrastructure that H has came out on chain and you guys have been able to evolve alongside of this ecosystem um so kudos to to being one of the Pioneers that helped start it all but it hasn't you know Gone without trials and tribulations and that's where you know Omare risk management and Chaos Labs you guys have been able to come in and provide a more comprehensive look at the entire system not just a but on

globally um with a focus on a and so maybe you could you know you could talk a little bit about the work that you guys provide for a specifically and then I'd love to discuss kind of how the engagement with the Dow given that you guys are kind of a third party entity if you will how that experience has been as well yeah would love to so really I think first of all when we talk about risk risk is often an umbrella term and it can Encompass a ton of different things uh what we're focused on that chaos is really kind of Market risk liquidity risk um Oracle risk smart contract risk to an extent um but basically all of these things we're thinking about constantly when an application like a has found product Market fit and it's trying to scale how

do we make sure that all the building blocks exist such that it can do so in a secure and scalable way always with with user safety and safety of funds at the Forefront of everything so that's at core like what we try to do is make things secure and and scalable um so that they can meet the demand that's incoming now there are a few different ways um that that we do this first of all everybody knows that the crypto markets are extremely volatile and oftentimes wild um much more than the the traditional Finance markets and and kind of markets that existed for longer and because of that the core of our system is automated risk monitoring and parameter optimization so I'll give like a very simple example to kind of drive it home let's say in a there's a money market for Bitcoin right so in this

money market you can deposit Bitcoin as collateral and borrow against it Stables let's say us c c uh for this example now there's a core question here like what is the amount of credit that the the protocol should extend against Bitcoin that was deposited right so so how much are we going to let them borrow um and this is are we are we talking about Bitcoin are we talking about WRA Bitcoin WRA Bitcoin but just as an example could be any asset right a is actually like it's it's also cross margin uh but I want to make it like really simple just so people can understand so in this example right like one one asset is deposited is clad roll you want to borrow the ratio between that that's table Stakes for protocol at a because much of the business model is is

interest off of the loans so on one hand you want it to be a lot of credit and give a lot to the user on the other hand the more that you give and the larger this leverages the more exposed you are to fluctuations in the market so Bitcoin is volatile it can go up and down and you can really get to a point uh if it isn't managed properly that the borrow that you've send it to the user is worth more than the collateral uh which was the POS the application therefore you know worst case install it uh ac across a specific position so we run all of these algorithms all of these um models Monte Caro simulations in the background and we give them very actionable data points this is how we recommend configuring this Market this should be the supply cap here these assets are

safe for listing either in an isolated fashion or AC cross margin fashion we crunch all of those numbers and and really kind of go hand in hand with a on any deployment uh for any as set on any network I would I would say that's um do you understand kind of like the the the magnitude is here that um you have this like a dynamic World which is um not just defi but but like Finance in general and in this Dynamic world uh you want to do different types of uh Financial behaviors Landing is one of them so what you and we're using uh on chain we're using smart contracts so

we're creating basically um rules that are either uh immutable or can enforced by uh certain type of a governance framework to ensure that there's no kind of like a single point of failure or minimizing the single point failure of the system so when we are in this Dynamic world it's really important that we're able to actually apply those changes that happen in uh the financial markets into these lending agreements that are created with smart contract and and the reason for that is um if you have parameters that you agree upon at a certain point uh let's say as

of today the market from six months from now can be completely upside down and if you're logged into parameters you create kind of like a really difficult place for um not just the uh borrowers but also the the lenders and price feeds are one example of this and also risk parameters another example of this where you need certain data to be inject that that you can regulate these parameters and ensure that you're correlating what's happening in the market because you if you aren't there's a risk that basically the system uh might lead bad debt or someone has to basically pay for that um that's situation where uh the the markets aren't reflecting into

uh agreements and I think that's what basically what everyone who is interacting with defi or any type of a financial uh agreement they should basically realize uh why it's important I just wanted to quickly add to what s was saying that like that is why it's important but I think what people often miss when they think about like a lending markets in general is the scale the scale is incredible because a is going to be by the end of the year deployed on 20 plus networks on average every Network might have at least like 10 different money markets and every money market could have let's say for easy math up to 20 different parameters that's 4 thou that just that is 4,000 parameters that need to be updated in

constant uh correlation to what's happening in the market um so there's really no way to do this if it's not automated you don't have enough humans uh like in defi to do this in a way that's secure and a is really pushed the the boundaries and is really kind of leading in terms of adopting that automated um risk Oracle infrastructure on chain and it's what's allowing it also to scale so well you know it's incredible like just to think about the time that has passed you know when when eth L was first on and maybe in the first iterations of a it it was the idea that we could reach this level of scale in a programmatic way we were we were swimming against the tide but I I think that's at a at a certain point there's

there was this inflection point we're either around it or we've already hit it or or it's coming up soon where we're now doing things that traditional Finance could not do in a programmatic way and we're doing that because it's programmatic whereas before that was that was a hurdle now it works in our favor that we have this this network of resources that has has reached this level of maturity um and I think now that that will only continue to accelerate when it comes to risk management and and dynamically updating this th this you know set of parameters across multiple networks across multiple different pieces of infrastructure um how do you balance um dynamically updating and sometimes these are urgent

things that need to be need to be fixed or or reset with the idea of governance and you know when it comes to something like a new chain or or a new parameter that needs to get updated what is the what is the ratio or the balance there between Dynamic Global risk management and updating uh and government governance with the community maybe I could quickly say something about the the governance piece because it's quite uh important in the sense that the the the every risk parameter that is uh affected to into the other protocol has to be like carefully thought about has to go through a proper due diligence reviewed by risk providers and this

system has worked really really well so like just if we look at look into all this years uh of crypto lending um using crypto as a collateral to to borrow a lot of the early um adopters of this business model were actually centralized businesses uh sales blocky triar Capital around the same model Genesis Lending um we started with edlin at at the very same time but one of the many of the essentialized models actually took off because there's less of user friction uh there but what we realized over uh ups and down Downs what we saw for example in uh 2022 with FDX

and um different Market movements is that actually a was resilient across multiple networks and with stod uh the market changes and when people ask why um one of the biggest reasons is that when you actually do decisions as a collective group of people publicly um and you invol diverse set of uh contributors um and also the the the token holders um and different parties that have delegations uh you get a outcome where there's a higher accountability uh and also this competition of actually ensuring that we have the best kind of like abilities to

perform these parameters and that's how like the whole choosing of risk providers happens in the in the alow so so that being said what's interesting with in is that um there's delegations of of actually governance as well so not every single decision on the aad out needs to go to full governance instead that the avow can actually delegate delegate the governance power um to Risk Managers for example as as risk administrators and this is where for example there's a set of a framework of delegations where you have a price in that like you have basically a a floor in a ceiling where you can adust just

these parameters and then um risk providers such as chaos Labs comes with their model effectively and automatizes those uh changes in the uh between the uh uh the the floor and the the ceiling but that's the part that om knows uh the best in this in this uh room no very very well said uh very very little to add to it I think that just one thing that's important to when you speak about the success of a it's uh obviously they're individual contributors but I think what makes it like special is that it's actually I would argue the the best functioning Dow or example of a dow that's worked

because you really have different working groups um that are worldclass experts in what they do um and this is why V3 is where it's at and this is also part of the the very large excitement for V4 but the way that we've done this right is I think one of the core tenants of immutable or or open finance or decentralized Finance or unchain Finance is that there's transparency now you know hooking up uh like a server that's pushing like real time updates on chain may solve for some type of like security or kind of risks but you know you don't want a situation in which a single entity has carp launch and can do whatever they want uh to the application on on a win's notice so bgd um and Zeller and Stan and avaro spent a lot of

time over the years is crafting the this framework and the way it works is that for every single parameter as s said there's a bound um there's a floor and there's a ceiling of a change that you can make now these changes as long as they're within the bounds they can be pushed optimistically so when a user opens up a position on RVE they understand already what are the ways in which the position or the terms of that loan can change and these can be done um by a risk manager now there's a specific set of parameters that may significantly alter uh the terms of the loan and these cannot be pushed in real time they will require a full goverance cycle so let's give an example a good example is a liquidation threshold right so

liquidation threshold if you're reducing it you can't do that unilaterally because you may liquidate users who weren't aware of of these terms when they open the position so that would require a full governance cycle but things that we can update in real time are things like interest rates they there's crazy demand and a lot of liquidity for lrts or lsts in the market well obious should be able to react to this demand in a positive way this we can update real time Supply borrow caps um all of these things which is the vast majority of changes you want to make so that is the delineation and really like this is the reason this is possible is because you have avara bgd ACI and Chaos all working together to put together a framework which is

transparent yep amazing um that that makes a ton of sense and and guys there's a lot that that I think we want to get through so I'm going to kick it into into the next gear here uh as we as we move to V4 this is one of the most exciting releases for a that has gone out you know in recent memory um and and I remember a V3 and and pools and Farms like everything was was really uh exciting about that that upgrade too and I feel even more excitement around this one um and so you know let let's dig into V4 a bit stonie could you just kind of you know explain in your perspective what this means for a yeah I mean V4 it follows quite a lot like the way we see

it from like the AVS perspective it follows the whole part of like what we're always focusing on um every iteration which is mainly on the users um what actually creates a a better uh utility for the users how we can improve features improve the pricing of the it uh and improve the risk management tools uh within the protocol so av3 um obviously has been really groundbreaking Innovation uh in defy and because of the features that rv3 has it has been able to capture uh a lot of the liquidity in

in fact um most of the growth were um OB happened during the 2024 um a lot of the drivers were because of the features like uh e mode which is a high efficiency mode on the rb3 protocol that allows you to uh get highest Capital efficiency with correlated assets such as for example if you're supplying stable coin to borrow another stable coin um R called uh e uh supplyed to borrow it um as an example that's why there is a lot of that growth happening because of those features arguably there's also features in the obb Tre that could even um bring more of

uh growth for example the portals for cross chain uh liquidity management that we haven't really um been focusing or utilizing but it's it's really interesting feature before um and same way as as one of the um evolvements last year was also that we started actually seeing Al Dao using uh the alb4 infrastructure that the protocol as a more of a infrastructure as well so creating new markets um on L1 on ethum and and doing new deployments which is uh quite incredible so a as a technology is something that can be used to

creating these um Landing markets or you can use it to create lending markets that has a more opinionated um Proto uh Proto offering essentially which is what what is happening now rv4 is more of trying to um double down on the uh risk management and capital efficiency but also allows the users to actually position themselves on the risk curve currently we do that by creating different other markets on on V3 but v4s architecture is uh little different so it relies on uh a concept of a um H Hub

and spokes architecture um where you have one main liquidity Hub so one single entry point for most of the liquidity and then you have liquidity spokes that actually are consuming the liquidity out of the Hub and have different kinds of uh uh risk profiles you have also ability to create your own uh liquidity hubs and these liquidity hubs can allocate liquidity to each other as well so think about it as a a similar type of a model as air airliners and airports so going point to point might be expensive and high cost um the same way in finance that you might not get the same Li quity at the same price um if you will have to go very Grand or

borrowing lending one asset one position and and have that really high signification so what we wanted to retain uh from the past with the rb3 and previous versions is the network effects of liquidity so one one of the reasons why R is a popular protocol is because you can find the liquidity there so if you come with a smaller sizing or even uh large sizing that you need to borrow you will find that liquidity because it's very well concentrated so we wanted to keep that those Network effects but at the same time we wanted to ensure that users are able to choose um where they position

themselves on a risk curve so you could Supply liquidity on the main liquidity Hub uh subscribe to a certain uh risk position the liquidity Hub itself can actually uh Supply into more uh with a limited amounts into more riskier um spokes meaning that it can enhance the uh liquidity Hub or you can supply to another one but it doesn't break down the uh concentration of of of liquidity which makes it really um powerful setup and the second very important feature is that uh now when you borrow in in av3 uh you can't really uh price the borrowing

based on your collateral positions so let's say that if om goes to a and borrows um usdc against eat and someone else comes and borrows usdc against uh little bit risk collat they will pay the same price of that so in the future with V4 um the users actually are paying a base rate if they're bringing the least riskiest collateral position um and they will pay a risk premium based on their collateral position and this allows the protocol to price risk and reward more accurately and create more earnings uh into the protocol that then accurately go to the uh uh deposit visitors uh itself there's a bunch of other features

but I don't think we're going to have time to to run all of those but those are the two main things that I think are going to be super valuable for for users normal users that are in defy or even uh institutional users cool St yeah that that was a great overview um and we'll we'll hear from uh from Omare uh here shortly uh from from some more the risk management side I do have son I do have some questions for you um so I I I heard Omare a little bit earlier talk about how you know we're we're going to reach 20 plus chains with a deployed uh which is a great feat coming from you know a multi-chain world and if we kind of look down the list here you you recently

posted and it's funny because you have a couple of Bitcoin l2s here but it's refreshing to hear you say it's all Bitcoin um but rud stock uh bo uh buildon Bob mantle Sonic cell Linea um these are all all all uh places a has started to progress down the the governance Pipeline and we can expect a to deploy sometime soon and there's one more World Liberty Finance which is quite interesting for a in particular um what is what is World Liberty Finance from your from your you know a perspective it is very closely it seems like it's very

closely aligned with a um have you had any you know relationships or person like what has been the experience kind of like as World Liberty Finance has been built out what has been the connection or relationship that it has had with a redstone is def's modular Oracle supporting over 100 clients on over 50 chains offering 1,000 assets Redstone is the leader for Bitcoin staking and yield bearing assets they offer the most robust customizable price feeds available in any model join the Redstone exhibition [Music]

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and has stemmed from its OG days of the fra stable coin it is is now in the LST space the LRT space and this fraxel L2 joins the existing Suite of fra products including Frack Swap and fra lend you can see fra fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fra main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity yeah I I find it's

it's really fascinating because the world Liberty Finance um is essentially a um instance of of a specifically for World Liberty finance and um the way to think about it is that as we go back to what I previously was um explaining that you can see a as a product like a protocol type of a product that anyone can connect interact with um Supply dra liity pretty much like um uh across all these different networks with this specific deployment um that team particular is using because they love so much uh of and how it works and all these years how

it's been working um they actually want to use the infrastructure the technology itself to create their own markets and there's definitely like a demand for those types of uh deployments and we see regularly in the arbit Dow someone raising the topic of of actually creating a new instance um and the Dow has been very open to those kind of uh opportunities with this specifically I find it interesting because it does create a um on type of an audience that could be U onboarded into to defy so one of the things that I've been talking uh quite a lot um in the past and more recently is that we are kind of living

in a uh transformation where we're we went from uh basically paper trading paper agreements to digital uh agreements based on databases in finance now starting to move actually onto a new subrate which is the onchain we've seen this obviously with all the Innovation that is happening so far uh in defi but we've also seen this with rwas uh seeing actually more these assets coming on chain while being offered also um offchain at the same time in parallel um and with or Liberty Finance their uh mission is actually to expand on this um

idea where they bring defy closer to uh Their audience and and users and I think we will see more these types of um uh uh initiatives uh in the future and V4 itself is going to make it much easier because um you can simply create your own liquidity Hub that you can man manage uh and then choose to which kind of a market to uh to allocate based on the risk positioning so I think it's uh winwin for uh everyone end of the day have you had any any uh conversations with you know the incoming president or

government like has there is there any like any pieces or information that you can give us as to like How Deeply ingrained we can expect World Liberty Financial chain into like the American like economy if you will or banking American banking system I think the RO is still um I think I think it's an ambitious team and I I think they will get a lot of things done but I want to remind that uh whether it's like world Liberty Finance or um a or defi General uh we still have a long path to go so so defi today is at um uh it isn't yet in a even all-time high of of the previous Peaks um and if

you look at the whole size of uh Finance today getting everything on Shain is going to be Decades of work uh eventually so I think there's a little bit more um hope now with the new Administration and I do think that um the ETF has been a big driver as well for the whole crypto space but it's going to take uh a little while when we see most of the fin being actually in unchain yeah absolutely and that's part of you know what you said earlier about still the work to go is much greater than the work that has been done which is very exciting to see how far we've come and think that you know we've got so much further to go um awesome I I've

got kind of a two-part question it's related to the world Liberty the the way that architecture seems to be playing out and then also a A's tokenomics um you mentioned how the a DA has been quite open to explore some of these instances where you know a new iteration of a is deployed uh one that's a little bit more customized can create create new pairs in in the instance of world Liberty Finance um and and some communities are not as friendly to you know what you could consider a fork um and so I'm curious if there's uh competitive nature here and the the second part to this question is kind of a flip side where you know Ali has

started to delve deeper and deeper into the stablecoin route and and explore more and more tokenomics built around go and around stable coins and monetizing that way um and similarly we have like traditional like stable coins US dollars that kind of are free floating the ecosystem and so the two-part of question here is is one are World Liberty finance and and a uh or I guess more specifically is A's instance on world Liberty finance and and a a from uh you know a labs are those two competitive and then the second part do you think stable coins and traditional Fiat currencies are competitive it's these are really great questions because

I I do think that's um when it comes to like OB the deployments and and these friendly Forks or instances um I think they're uh extremely synergetic uh in the sense that there is a lot of value added to the Ava da and the AA Community while at the same time uh servicing a spec specific audience or purpose or smar strategy and obviously I'm just just even though uh I am the founder of of a I'm still one voice amongst the many in the Dow so so effectively um there's a process to decide on whether these Forks are actually good for the a

ecosystem or not uh and they're always individual decisions but what I do think is that they are synergetic I think where uh and I do think in the future some of these forks will be more specialized for in certain area like rwas and whatnot the ports that aren't really um uh beneficial are the ones where we see teams foring uh protocols and not really putting effort into the security they might make some parameter changes or changes in the code base that really creates complicated results anomalies in the code base and effectively uh creates adds more risk in into the protocol

we've seen that with hundreds of Works happening over the past years and I think we just have to be at the space mature enough uh to uh decide that if you are going to build defi you have to really understand the fundamentals and how to secure these networks protocols in and ensure that you're providing something really uh secure for the uh end users so that's kind of like my thinking uh there with go I think what's interesting for go is that's um 100 million wor of go provides the same revenue for the abow as 1 billion usdc so the magnitude of revenue for obal is

is so significant that focusing on growing go which is a um a a process that's going to take time because you need to uh play this kind of like a catching game which liquidity over time as you grow at the state point but the rewards for that is is actually enormous so if go essentially grows into uh let's say 500 million it's already earning more than any other stable coin Market on on a and in the first place go was buil for the users in the sense that uh we found that one of the biggest requirement or demand from the users was to have more

predictability on their borrowing costs and go fits exactly to that uh kind of angle where um you also have more um predictability on the borrowing cost compared to variable rates which basically there's a lot of that availability already in the uh AA protocol so down the line go will have a lot of focus but also before we make go Integrations uh more seamless as well yeah I just want to add on to what s says is around like the forks and stuff and I think Robbie you mentioned that not all communities welcome the forks and I think this is also an area uh in

which a is kind of distinct in their approach so first of all there's a realization that you know a is in its different versions is the most battle tested lending infrastructure that exists today um it's been audited um so many times it's been the most heavily used and that that is Baron because of that though there are different kind of use cases in which new change in ecosystems want to um utilize that infrastructure so really what we put forward as a dow over the past quarter was the the fork framework and the fork framework basically has three different tiers the first tier is that you can actually work with the Dow to have uh an a instance completely a deployed on your

network um and and what that looks like is working with with chaos avara the ACI bgd uh and really set up like an Oba instance on your chain the second is what is called a white label and that is what actually World Liberty Finance has done so there are teams that might be either really opinionated on on the marketing or or maybe the specific risk profile or type of assets that they want set up um they still want to have the benefit of having the worldclass operators in code base um but they want to do more maybe on the BD side so here there's some type of rev share uh that's like negotiated between the Dow and World Liberty Finance in this case um it's a for all kind of uh sense and

purposes but with different branding and different BD and growth teams leading it the last is the friendly Fort so this is this is like um applications that will not get the operating team of a they just simply want the code base um and then there's some type of kind of minimal ref share agreement there but once they do it they're on their own historically what we've seen is that these have not kind of worked well for most of the teams becau because a is not just um like a simple application it's actually the culmination of many many years of engineering uh and a ton of kind of different security measures and guard rails and teams that do this need to understand that they must invest uh to get up to speed um with all of the

internal kind of knowledge that the AV DA has a mass otherwise to St point it doesn't end well so typically you know teams that really want to do things well we see them either go for a setup that's similar to what world Liberty Finance has done or just a proper AA deployment but what's important is that it's not just uh TurnKey Fork this and you're good to go you need the team uh to to bring all of the expertise and experience in order to run these because lending as we see in the centralized world where in many cases it's much easier is a rky business the CT Warriors are going to come at me for definitions but it feels a lot like l2s and l1s like World Liberty Financial instance of a is almost kind of like a like an a rollup

um you can have more C imiz ability but It ultimately has some sort of uh Revenue share like you said you know we see this a lot on on optimism right we have optimism super chain but then there's a revenue share program for all these rollups that are deploying on top of op stack and they're they're paying the collective this Revenue share um uh to to ultimately give value to the ecosystem that kind of gave birth to that rollup um and trickling down you know we have l2s and l1s that are ultimately they're paying something to the ethereum L1 maybe it's da uh they're you know paying this rent in order to inherit some some level of security and so very similarly you mentioned the the three tiers of these forks with kind of

varying levels of association with a DA it makes a ton of sense and and that answers the question very concretely like no these things are not parasitic to borrow a word from the from the toxic toxic CT Community like these things do have some some give and take here um what is the the revenue share between World Liberty and I'm sure we could go investigate it in the Dow but like what is the revenue share between World Liberty Finance instance and and a yes specifically uh it's a combination of the uh the reserve factor and and also the uh token allocation of the uh World Liberty Finance which is 7% if I

remember looking at I think it's seven yeah yeah which I think it's a it's a good model to actually use so if anyone is looking to deploy use Ain and deploy some sort of uh specialized uh Fork I personally would like to see some interesting um instances specifically for rwas uh because those types of collaterals and and setups require a a different type of uh uh model than the the plain vanilla markets that ala has of today yep very cool so this is this is a model that you guys are actively exploring and it's kind of a framework that anyone out there that is open to using a and as they shared it's the most

battle tested framework they can they can kind of take one of these tiers they can Fork it provide some sort of Revenue share token allocation to the Dow and then and then kind of use all they at their Leisure yeah exactly exactly awesome but that Omar to your point does not come with the global risk management all of the admin overhead development resources that a has kind of baked into its protocol yeah I mean like the these may vary like Donnie is highlighting some of the more exciting use cases that we expect to come to Market like this year like rwa um that is a very very very different ball game from a risk perspective um than you know Crypton native assets like markets where you can

borrow against like ethereum bit rap Bitcoin or any type of Bitcoin uh in salana so here it's like now you know history doesn't repeat itself but R there's we can draw the experience and specifically chaos Labs like we work with a but we also work with a bunch of others so we can bring that experience to the table but um every case of um a white label or a fork it needs to be examined like individually has its own nuances um and and that's what kind of the Dal aims to bring to the table we want to give everyone the they experience um but also give them the latitude to customize for their unique value proposition uh and areas in which you're trying to push forward I I appreciate the open-mindedness of the

Dow here because like we said you know some communities are not as friendly to forks and they'll just shut it down without even kind of listening to with an open mind to the to the potential of some sort of synergistic relationship between the fork and the originator so Kudos again to to a DA being one of the one of the few Dows that has stood the test of time and continues to innovate um and and kind of leading in and our topic here and wrapping up uh we have a an incredible pace of innovation in a particular sector here of of AI and agents and this is kind of converged with defi in in this I don't even know how to pronounce it maybe defi DFI um and so I'm already starting to

see some uh use cases for agents on a um and and you know some some more living out there in the wild not really in PR yet but are really really cool to cool to see um just kind of open convers like what is the what is is it is it real is there like some legitimacy here to the def AI thing um if so what what is it I mean I would say that like 99% is but the 1% that is not is really interesting so I do think that um like Defy is a really good value transaction layer like moving value programmatically minimizing trust so it

is a kind of like a perfect uh setup for something like um AI agents essentially like you can't do the same things um you know on on banking rails for example you're like super limited so it is a really open environment to to innovate and to actually automatize or search different opportunities and I think that's going to be really interesting um I've seen some interesting stuff already uh build on a and there's a way to uh integrate there's there's uh projects working uh directly on and building uh airav I think what's going to be interesting down the line is the kind of

like a AI risk uh perspective because I do think that um searching for yield let's say that I like I I don't believe like for BS or AI BS that are just like moving capital for like getting like you know a few more basis points interest but I do think that moving positions based on kind of like a risk appeti changes or changing market dynamics is is really fascinating uh this is more of like a merfi but it's something that I I think is GNA be really valuable when you mentioned that I was like man Omar is sitting right here like don't tell him an AI is going to take his job but but no I I I take it that om you can

obviously elaborate but AI agents can actually extend the capability of risk management by magnitudes 100% so it's like now it's very much in fashion to talk about agents but the core of the chaos slab's platform is agent-based Monte Carlo simulation so we've been doing this from the get-go and now there's more recognition for this and even today people are talking about you know what are the real use cases that are going to be in defi with AI and we you see like Bots that are you know like posting or kind of laring on X but it's already in a you have risk agents that are writing to the risk oracles which are propagating the data on chain so interest rates for example on the Lial instance it's managed by an agent today

within the guard rails right so that that's it's already here right on the biggest Ling application and also um for other markets and Perpetual markets like GMX which are utilizing this we are to like any kind of new innovation there is like a lot of that that this is true we've been doing a lot of research here um and will'll be releasing two very kind of new large projects with this at the Forefront um this year uh kind of alluded maybe to some of that last year we did the prediction Market Oracle which was powered by AI agents for the US elections uh with winam un and layer zero and also published uh research with the head of model evaluation at open AI uh for some of the things that we're working on so um not

only will it not take our jobs I think it'll make what we're doing even better and and like it's already some of it is in production but we're going to be a lot more um open um with what we're planning uh and how we think this intersects with with defi so I think the potential is very real yeah I think it it absolutely will um and and and it it's the possibility of distribution for the work that you guys do you know it's it's almost like having a million chaos labs in everyone's pocket right you guys you know have your resources you commit them to to the a down and potentially a few others but you know the the idea that AI agents are able to kind of proliferate amongst the communities here um I think is

incredibly powerful so I I really just have one last question uh when RAV good question um I do you think there should be one this year um uh it's uh whenever it happens I'm going to let you know I'll see you there DJ stonie I love it that little that little the little ghost in the middle just in front of the DJ stand every time you just you know the Vibes yeah that's Ronnie the ghost Ronnie Ronnie well from Robbie to Ronnie always a good time and and guys really really fun conversation thank you so

much for coming on for having us thank you so much