AMA with Scoopy Trooples of Alchemix

Transcript

there's so much going on in d5 today sometimes you just need the the tldr explanation so this is going to be a really fascinating fantastic conversation that's why we are doing this ask me anything with scoopy so we are going to get to the conversation just a minute but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible bankless is proud to be supported by uniswap uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to

sell and receive the token you want to buy something brand new in the uni-swap ecosystem is the uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants we have been saying this for a while and will say it again dows have money and they are in need of labor if you think that you have something to contribute to the uni-swapped out apply for a grant to uni-swap just look at the size of the uni-swap treasury it's almost 3 billion this mountain of capital is looking for labor do you have something of value to contribute to the uniswap dow no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply for a uni grant at unigrants.org and help steer unit swap in the direction that you think it should go that's exactly what we did to get

uniswap to be a sponsor for bankless and you can do the same for your project thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange i've been a customer of gemiini since i first got into crypto in 2017 and it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto bison cells gemini is available in all 50 states and in over 50 countries worldwide and on gemini there are markets for over 30 various different crypto assets including many of the hot defy tokens and it's one of the few exchanges that has liquid die markets gemini just launched their earn program where you can earn up to 7.4 percent interest on 26 various crypto assets if you're tired of paying fees in d5 or you don't want to worry about defy

exploits but you still want to earn interest on your crypto assets gemini earn is the product for you another product i'm stoked to get my hands on is the gemini crypto back credit card which gives you three percent cash back on all of your purchases but paid to you in your preferred crypto asset when i get my gemini credit card i'm going to make sure that i get my cash back in eth so whenever i buy something i get a little bit of eth bonus back to me at the same time you can open up a free account in under three minutes at gemini.com go bank list and if you trade more than a hundred dollars within the first 30 days after sign up you'll be gifted a free 15 bitcoin bonus check them out at gemiini.com go bankless all right guys we are here with scoopy

triples co-founder of the alcomix platform and for those that have been around in the d5 bear market the ethereum bear market you would know at least on crypto twitter you would you would know scooby triples and to to me the the interesting thing is that scoopy triples is pseudo-anonymous we have him here on the show with us but we are showing his his twitter avatar instead of his face and this is kind of the power of ethereum and the power of you know permissionless decentralized platforms where you actually don't need to be a a known physical human to to build something uh and so that's how i've known scooby trooples is as the pseudo-anonymous uh you know twitter engager that turned to d5 platform builder uh and so i actually kind of want to want to start with that uh scoopy what what was the uh the d5 bear

market like for you as a pseudo-anonymous person and then where did the original inspiration for alchemics come about from um well i i got into crypto like 2016 with bitcoin and then ethereum and then a million and one icos and ship points and everything like that just kind of like everyone else um and um i did sell a little here and there uh near the top and i was able to do pretty well for myself but not most of my stash um so i then became uh an ethereum community member holding it down 95 or something yeah um actually did buy the dip a bunch around 100 so that was that was very nice um

and at the time in early 2018 um i was experimenting with uh different d apps um at the time i was just doing just purely degenerate d5 not even really d5 they weren't even defy apps it was just you know money games uh one of them that i really liked and that kind of inspired me to become a dev was um fomo 3d if you don't remember 3d yeah um that one was i thought it was just like it kind of blew my mind to like what was possible um using programmable money and even though it was a ponzi game you know slash lottery and very much a zero-sum game like i was

thinking it just you know really piqued my interest like wow you can do a lot of stuff i want to study this not to you know scam people and to make you know ponzi games and stuff like that but you know to do stuff like uh i was following uh maker dao a lot at the time um was watching or listening to to podcasts uh you know avidly at that time uh shout out to epicenter epicenter podcast uh they were one of the big ones i i relied on early to to learn about uh you know projects on a more technical level and i learned about makerdale through them um and you know so i was like one of the early cdp holders i think my first my first number was 156 was uh i was the cdp

that's early yeah i got in very early it was very painful having to transfer eath to wheath and to peace and putting that into bankruptcy it took like it took like five or six transactions and like do you remember that old interface scooping like how janky it was that that took me like a good like day or two just to find out how to do a deposit into it so yeah it was painful and dye at the time was you know just this tiny little thing with what maybe 50 million in supply at the time and everyone thought you know it and eth would die as heath was dying in 2018 and i just you know doubled down and i was like you know what this stuff is the future this stuff is awesome you know

just people haven't caught up to it yet and um so after i was inspired by fomo uh to become a blockchain dev you know an ethereum dev i i started learning how to code before that i did something else completely different no way yeah so so crypto and ethereum is your your very first like actual uh coding programming yeah um i i first i learned web development um because they always felt like they said that you know solidity is similar to javascript yep um so i i did web development got pretty good at that um started getting some jobs and some gigs uh doing web 2 development using react um all in the while you know i was still

like studying solidity here and there and then my friend that i made along the over the years in various discords the cto of alchemics he approached me in june of 2020. he's like hey i know you could do front end development and i need a front-end dev i got these contracts you know for this new defy app um back then we were called cheese spy and worked kind of similarly but not nearly as good as alchemics um and then so i was building out uis with him um learning some more solidity i didn't actually write any of the solidity but um you know i feel like it's kind of too high stakes for someone with you know my

experience level to to be making that stuff uh just yet um but i did um help review the code make tests for it and you know built the front end for it and everything like that so i've learned a lot of solidity along the way um and you know this was it was right around like the start of defy summer is when we started uh building this out and put that in perspective there was no urine right we were actually going to build it on top of idle finance right um you know which you know was an early yield aggregator um and then after we went through several iterations uh we finally landed on alchemics uh cheese five wouldn't have

worked because we were gonna use amms to help deliver the uh the future yield but then we learned about mev and sandwich attacks and everything like that we're like oh no this could potentially not work because of this because you know bots could extract all the revenue from the protocol you know and you know basically damage it so after a number of iterations we finally got to the alchemic system that we have now so i want to get into specifically alchemics and of course that's the whole entire ama but and i do want to start from very from scratch right so for those that aren't familiar with the protocol but first i wanted to ask about your avatar uh what's the background on your avatar and for the podcast listeners we are seeing a a witch with spectacles and a purple

witch hat uh and she looks like she's about to like summon a spell or something okay so this is this is really weird um so like it's always been like kind of my thing online for my avatars or handles to be like a waifu of some sort um before i had uh my current one i had this kind of like this anime character with a wi-fi logo on it that was like my old avatar and then knowing that i was making alchemics i came across this other nfp uh app called avastar's and i saw this one like this one like which she had like cat whiskers i was like oh she looks really cool so i picked her up as an nft and use that as my profile and then um

one of my friends and community members in the alchemics discord um made this piece with me as this uh you know this pretty hot wizard chick um and then there's this other poster on youtube named ratwell and ratwell start like started turning everyone into sofas because uh the other there's another uh d5 user on twitter named mewn um who is like a ditto with this pokemon character ditto but also but the avatar is ditto as a couch and then ratwell turned these these couch characters into a meme and that's why you see couches all over twitter now

right it's because of mune and ratwell yes that's why i'm a sofa ratwell i've been uh couch pilled and seated [Laughter] all right so scoopy let's yeah yeah let's get into el comex so and as david said i think we want to start at the highest level what this thing actually is so how would you summarize this in sort of the you know few sentences what does alchemix do um alchemix is a way for you to tokenize your future yield i mean that's the simple uh explanation of it um there is one explanation i really really

really like i'm gonna pull it up right now it's actually made by one of our community members he has a website called dyor.phi and he has a page on it for alchemix and this is the way he describes it and i think this is the best it says imagine a bank you can deposit money and the bank pays you 10 to 15 interest there's a credit card attached to the account with a credit limit of 50 of the amount you have deposited there's no interest on the card there are no monthly payments to make instead the interest you earn on your balance pays off any debt you have automatically and i i think that that just sums it up

perfectly in one paragraph about what we're all about and what we can do you can teleport your future yield into the present and that you know while preserving your uh your collateral and that makes it more capital efficient so the way i i've described this to people is that you get your yield up front right and so you are committing a certain amount of deposits into alchemics and those deposits are in die form and they don't always have to be in die for them they can be uh in in other assets and i believe in future versions of alcomix which is a topic we're going to get into but you deposit your your die into alchemics and then you get the future yield payments up front uh and what that does is that locks a certain amount of dye into the

alchemics program or into the alchemics application and you commit that die to be there for a certain amount of time but the yield that you're going to get in the future you can get immediately uh and so let's talk about why someone would want to do that what are the use cases for getting your yield up front like what are people using the alchemics protocol for today um yeah so so people are using it for a number of things um some people are using it to yield far more with it so they're farming with their future yield um some people are using it to long east or other coins um but more interestingly some people are using it to finance things in their real life um the guy who you just put up his

website zerex d5 his um his dad's boat sank last year in a storm and he yeah yeah unironically a boating accident um and he actually deposited 50 000 die in the alchemics minted 25 000 al usd converted that to usdc put it on coinbase uh sent it to his bank account and then bought a boat for his dad using an alchemics loan now why wouldn't so he deposited the dye into alchemics in the first place why did he do that instead of just trading that die for uscc and sending that into his bank account what's the advantage of putting the die in alchemics first so that that 25 000 loan that he took

out um with current rates right now in about two years that would be paid off and he would have no debt left over so it would be a free boat in two years and he could withdraw all of his collateral so he could preserve his principle and still get to you know spend money against it in a very low risk manner um so i actually did a little financial analysis of this um with this character named jerry this was actually in the uh in the bankless article uh that we put together and let's say jerry has a thousand dollars and then um his car breaks and costs five hundred dollars to fix his car um if you took a that loan out in uh al usd using alchemics

um that he would have a fixed card and two years later he'd have a thousand dollars that he could have freely uh you know access to whereas if he paid out of pocket uh with this thousand dollars and he had 500 left over and then he were to put his 500 to work in defy he would end up having less money overall than he would if he used alchemics and so the the way the the other way that i think about this is that anything that you want to purchase that you that you are then like on a loan for so like a house or a car where you get a car loan or a mortgage if you want to just own that thing outright you can get an alchemics loan and get that uh get

that payment for the the entire cost of the whole entire thing up front there therefore you can own the house outright or you can own the car outright and the interest payments that you pay are actually just coming from yield in in alchemics uh and specifically and alchemix just plugs right into into urine earlier in this podcast you talked about how um urine wasn't here a year ago and so you were going to use idle finance or something else but then now urine is here and now we have this yield optimizing engine and so really it's just alchemix is just getting letting you borrow money collateralized by yield from urine built on top of yearn and so if you ever want to go and buy something but you want instead of making the monthly mortgage payments or monthly car

payments instead of making monthly car payments alchemics can pay you monthly yield payments to your loan and you already got the full value of the loan up front and so instead of you paying for your car you're paying your interest rates the interest rates are paying you and you just borrowed everything up front the only catch is that you have to have the full value of what you are trying to buy up front in die terms and so that you have to you do have to commit to a certain amount of dye to begin with right um i don't have any dye because if i did have dye i would just sell it for ether and but if i wanted to buy something i could i could keep that dye and and then get a a dollar loan from alchemix uh so i could

buy my thing up front without having like the bank owned my house or the bank owned my car i can own my house or my car using alchemics uh anything you want to add on to there um yeah you would have to have double the amount of like a car cost fifty thousand you'd have to have a hundred thousand to do this so it's a little bit capital intensive but if you do have extra money um it's a fantastic um you know financial tool um it promotes savings while you can also still you know get credit off of your savings um and i think that that's that's quite powerful i know personally i'm using it for uh my own budget for my house um i have a decent amount of dye um i'm trying to i've been

slowly cashing out um some of my eats i know sacrilege david class for me but i've been doing some of that um it's not all but i still have most of my stack but um but basically i i put in a nice chunk of dye into alchemics and you know my monthly expenses aren't much it's maybe two three thousand dollars at most um and so i'll just draw that much money in al usd uh you know then take it to my coin base and and you know put into my bank account and then at the end of the month i have like much less debt so you know almost zero debt dad this is cool this is like a point that you made scoopy in the uh in the article

you wrote us which it you know some people are still listening to this and they're like yeah but guys you have to have in the in the boat example boating accident example um you have to have fifty thousand dollars in order to get a loan of twenty five thousand dollars right and they're saying well that's not really a loan it's not and it's true it's not a credit type loan but what you're doing is you don't have to spend the fifty thousand dollars that you've worked so hard to save at all essentially the twenty five thousand dollar loan that you're getting with your fifty thousand dollars that you put into alchemix you're taking that from future yield of of wiring that you'd receive in in d5 anyway and from you know

you're borrowing from the future so the point yeah for free the point that you made in your in in the article is this really encourages users to save first and then borrow against their collateral so it's very um different than the consumer debt model that we're used to in the u.s which is like yeah how much credit can i get how much like debt can i get in this is like you save your money and then you never have to spend it because you can just pull yield that you'd make otherwise into the future that was a really interesting insight to me because this kind of construct struck this kind of money lego this kind of loan if we're going to call it a loan is not available anywhere in traditional

finance this is like defy native stuff the ability to get a self-paying loan that pulls yields from the future yeah i think the closest analog in the traditional finance world is if um you had like an investment property and then you had like you know tenants paying rent to you and then you would take out like a home equity mortgage or a home equity line of credit i think that would probably be the closest analog to what alchemics offers in the traditional finance world so you know your tenants will be paying off your your mortgage for you and then you could use your house as collateral to you know borrow money and generally houses as collateral are pretty safe but we've seen episodes in

history where a house collateral is actually kind of uh perhaps dangerous and i think the beautiful thing about alcoholics is it's dollar denominated collateral with a dollar denominated loan and so the liquidation risk is uh zero perhaps because you don't have any price risk you can't get liquid it's not built into the system you can you can repay your debt using your collateral and that's under the liquidate tab but you can't liquidate anyone else and nobody else can liquidate you right so let's talk about let's talk about the risk make sure we understand it so all of this yield as david mentioned is coming from uh places in d5 like wire right and you know uh why iron is doing really well from a yield perspective on on uh stable

coins yeah i don't i don't know what percentages today but like say double digits right 10 to 14 or so so that means you can pay off a a loan relatively quickly but what happens scoopy like let's talk about risk one if uh d5 yields evaporate for stable coins and they go down to like you know two percent three percent does that just like lengthen the time it takes to pay off the loan or what's the effect of that yeah so the only effect that would have is that your loan repayment time would uh lengthen um what we could do to keep loan repayment times shorter is that we could adjust

the collateralization ratio so imagine instead of having to be uh 200 we could change it to be like 300 or 400 percent so it would be 400 of dive you know you know backing a hundred dollars worth of value usd and that that could be used to to make the the you know the principle higher versus the amount of debt so that would make the loan repayment uh more reasonable but i i don't know if we're gonna get down to three to five percent and yearn honestly speaking um i just i mean i think that with the rate of innovation in d5 and how you know the the lending markets are evolving and how you know there can be new protocols spinning up with new

tokens that can offer new sources of yield and things like that i just don't see it getting below five percent right i agree anytime soon what other risks do we have here so we don't have the collateralization risk but what else do we have here the other risk uh there's a couple other risks so one of them is um you know a composability risk where we're building with urine and urine is building on top of other things like so the the yv divulge isn't just one strategy i think it's eight strategies now and some of that dye goes to pull together some of it goes to curve some of it goes to compound some of it goes to the iron bank i don't even know where all those sources of yield is from it because they've added a few strategies since i

last checked and if any one of those sources were to be hacked that would then trickle down to urine vault and then alchemix users um so that is one risk right there another risk is that right now we're only using dye as a collateral for alchemics um and so if dye's peg were to break then that would have a bad effect on alchemics as well um version two we'll rectify that and we're gonna take basically any viable stable coin with you know decent on chain yield as a collateral type for alchemic so you know usdc tether susd uh it looks like this new liquidy protocol with their lusd is also a very

attractive candidate um so there won't be a shortage of uh you know stable coin collaterals that we can add so we'll be able to diversify our risk in that in that aspect the other risk is that say the yields go down and the price of the alchemics token just tanks like we're talking like double digit you know as opposed to being like four digit right now um then there wouldn't be a whole lot of incentive to pull your uh your tokens and and curve so then that might um cause uh the peg to suffer and if the peg is is broken

and yields on chain have gone down significantly then the other pegging mechanism the the transmuter might not be able to keep up and and guarantee a peg of one dollar for al usd in that case al usd essentially becomes a bond which will be able to mature to one dollar over time using that yield from here so let's go ahead that's the absolute worst case scenario is things like that happening let's talk about that transmuter and specifically al usd because that's a very critical component of the alchemics protocol that makes everything function so can you can you walk us through al usd in the transmuter

yeah so anytime all usd debt is repaid in the form of die it goes to the transmitter and that could be from harvesting yield from urine or if a user repays their all usd debt using die um all that stuff goes to the transmitter um there was a very popular degenerate strategy uh that that we we observed people using uh where they would deposit dye max mint alusd then liquidate their their collateral so imagine you put in like a hundred thousand die mint fifty thousand alusd then you would liquidate your collateral paying down your fifty thousand dollar

debt then the person would then withdraw the rest of their die then put it into the curve pool and then they would be able to put in fifty percent alley usd fifty percent dye into the curve pool then farm with that and every single time people did that that dye was going to the transmuter backing al usd and and what's the function of the transmuter why does alchemix need the transmitter to work so the transmitter is a way to guarantee that you can always get one die for your for one all usd right um so in the event that the peg breaks you could um and then alchemics becomes like a bond you stake your alliosd in the

transmitter and over time that will mature so where you can convert it completely to um to die one to one and so that's actually the mechanism because al usd is a synthetic usd coin produced by alcomix and the way that al usd actually maintains its peg is by uh being able to be traded for one die but not but there's a there's a bottleneck right there's not everyone can go and trade al usd there's a there's a restriction which is actually something i'm not totally familiar with so maybe you could help me articulate why this bottleneck exists and how the size of that bottleneck can flex smaller to wider

yeah so in alchemics we say that your only debt is time so you imagine you take out an alchemics loan it takes two years to pay off that that yield that we harvest you know or that yield that you get from the future isn't completely uh accounted for until you know all your debt has been repaid by the system um and so like even if we didn't have yield farming incentives and things like that there would still be a nominal price for al usd because it would mature at at least double the rate of uh the urine interest because everything's a collateralized 200 right so imagine you know the peg breaks horribly you can now buy al usd off the market for 50 cents

you know you know hey in two years this 50 cents is going to be worth one dollar that sounds like a really good deal then people will start buying it off the market you know it'll find its own little equilibrium um but i don't think we have to worry about that um al usd in the the curve pool we'll actually be going on to curve.phi the actual official site um in a few weeks a couple weeks after our audit uh clears that's our last hurdle everything else there's a number of requirements to get on to uh to curb that fi and we check all the boxes except for the audit um so once we get on there then we'll be eligible for the the gauges so that'll be another source of on-chain yield um

for the aliosd tokens aside from the alcx tokens and uh we are working with other partners as well to you know make iosd more integrated into other d5 apps to help take care of the demand side for it so scoopy i just want to quickly summarize this and i think a user interface might sort of help me explain this for folks and then fit in a question that's come in specifically about al usd do you see my screen here yeah right so i go to the vault i can hit deposit i've got some dye in my wallet so i could deposit we'll say about 688 die uh into the wallet um and then i'm able to get half of that

as a loan up to half of that as a loan is that correct yeah you would be able to borrow 344 al usd okay put in 688 okay and so i'm getting al usd i'm not getting die and then once i have the al usd then i then go to like curve and i swap it for some other stable coin is that what i'm doing yes you can do that okay all right so and then let's go to the repayment process so if i want to repay this loan my 688 dollars that that i put in um or actually a half of that that i'm actually borrowing i have to actually have uh al usd and repay that amount and can i do that at any point in time yeah

you can actually repay an all usd or die so if you click on the little box where it says i'll usd there it will go to die or you can do both at the same time if you hit the little plus button there oh very cool yeah and so you can paint with with both and what's this liquidate but yeah so i talked about that briefly a second ago um so you can use your die that you have as your collateral to repay your all usd debt ah okay i see in the event you want to sort of instantly close your loan you just take that die and repay the al usd thinking for this feature is like what if you know somebody came in borrowed al usd um and then you know solved this new andre token uh

launch but it turns out it actually wasn't an andre token it was just something spoofing it was andre and that person got robbed and lost all their their money right and then something else comes up in life and they're like oh man i really need access to this collateral and so you know instead of having to wait uh you know until they're cold you know their debt is completely repaid they could you know repay their debt using their collateral and get out of the system okay okay all that makes sense i understand it i hopefully listeners viewers understand what's going on here but this gets me to the question this was a question that was actually tagged at the end of the post but i think maybe a lot of people have it um so the question from somebody was is al usd supposed to be pegged around a dollar i

think the answer to that is yes if so why is it fluctuating so much it's currently at uh 83 cents to the dollar i'm not sure when this post is made i'm not sure what it is right now but can you explain the fluctuation so that's not actually the real price of all usd i'm i'm guessing they want the coin market cap for coin gecko which is referencing this highly illiquid uniswap pool that has like five thousand dollars in it so like any little buy will send the price you know easily fluctuated like well over a dollar or well under a dollar um the the actual price of al usd right now is last time i checked it was 0.999 die one l usd equals 0.999 die

and i think it would be one to one if it wasn't for the point four percent point zero four percent fee that curve charges i see so so then can you explain a little bit maybe you've partially explained i think you have but um just put a fine tip on what the currency risk is when you when you have something like al usd and you have to repay in al usd what sort of currency risk is somebody taking on there so i mean i think this is with any decentralized stable coin that somebody could uh be taking on pegging risk so let's say that you are an lp in the curve pool and um

you know there's just massive amounts of people selling al usd um and then it would cause an imbalance in the pool leading to the the price of value usd dropping and this would be impermanent loss right um the cool thing about alchemics is if you were to actually take out your coins in a balanced manner let's say you put like a hundred thousand dollars into the the curve pool and then it gets de-pegged and things like that if you were to withdraw in a balanced manner you would have maybe slightly less than like a hundred thousand dollars in total value you'd be withdrawing from it but you'd have if you were then to put all that extra al usd that's allocated

to you now and then you put that in the transmuter then you would actually come out ahead so there would be no impermanent loss you just have to wait a little while to come out ahead and so this is this feature and among other features in alcamix is why i'm particularly interested in alcoholics because it seems to be a very risk managed position because not only do you have a natural hedge with the transmuter and exposure to al usd but also you never actually can really get out over your ski tips with like leverage right and so i i'm in the middle of writing an article which i think perhaps might come out of the the bankless newsletter next week we'll we'll see if i got to ask lucas for

permission on that one um but i i illustrate uh like an exit strategy is what i'm calling it where i collateralize my ether because i'm in the never sell gang i collateralize my ether and make her dao borrow die against that ether put that die in alchemics to borrow al usd against that die send the al usd into curve swap it out for usdc send that usd to my bank account and ball out right like then cash out at the top of the market i get to have the value of my ether actually in my bank account maybe i buy a house i don't know who knows um but the point is is that if that and that's that's risk because i have ether and maker dow and i

have a loan backed against against my ether if ether gets cut in half i have a safety net because all of the dye that i borrowed from maker dow is still in alchemics and so if i got out over my ski tips and i took out too much leverage i can just take my principal and just give it right back to make her doubt and alchemix takes care of the of the rest now if i if i also took out the maximum risky position in alchemix which i borrowed uh you know the maximum which is 50 then i immediately can only actually get 50 percent of what i borrowed from maker dow and put only 50 back but paying back 50 percent of your borrowed funds is

actually a pretty healthy amount when it comes to uh when when it comes to repaying your debts uh and so overall with alchemix and the the the the hedge against the currency risk as well as not actually losing control of your principle i think it's an overall a very risk managed position uh and while we are in the world of d5 we are used to just like you know 100x degenerating alchemix is actually i feel like a a sigh of relief when it comes to uh defy apps that actually allow people to take on reduced risk rather than more risk um scoopy you want to add anything to that yeah um i definitely agree with all your points there um and

good thing you're sitting down uh because we're going to simplify that strategy for you um a lot because it's the alpha this is one little bit of alpha i can leak here so after we get our audit back we are going to launch a limited beta of al eth which will take eth as a collateral and allow you to mint al eat against it so that will when that goes live uh that'll be sometime in may is what we're planning for it might take a little bit longer not entirely sure um but yeah we're going to try to you

know get that going and set up some nice liquid markets for al eat as well um and so your cash out strategy will be a lot easier you just put your ether into alchemics borrow alley and then do stuff with your alley instead big fan of that that yeah that's cool because so the in that model david you get to keep all of your eth it's like that that's massively more simple for an exorcist strategy you can either you know yield farm with that and make even more or you can you know sell it for you know die and then put it in alchemix [Laughter] and start that whole loop again you could do that um so we're excited about that um i also

noticed something i want to touch a point about what you said about kind of like risk management um alchemics actually lets you be incredibly risky if you want to be um we're actually partnering with a newly launched app define app they're still in beta right now uh they're called margin swap and they're gonna allow for 5x leverage trading and they're going to be routing through sushi swap and in uni swap and um right now alcx is one of the supported assets in it um along with other blue chips it's nice to be included among them but

we're going to be getting al usd on there as well so imagine you can fund a leveraged position using debt that repays itself so you can go you know 5x leverage on on you know some uniswap gem and if it gets rugged or you get liquidated oh no big deal you know you're going to get your money back in in two years right you get to hedge your downside you get to you get to you get to gamble i guess on uniswap gems with the the yield that you've just brought forward into the future yeah you can do that with 5x leverage using margin swap so i think that's that's something that's going to be very appealing wow they're a new dap though so i do want to give them a shout out um and

and i think they're they're very much an under the radar gem at this point but i'm excited that uh for what they're doing well scooby there's so much more to talk about because there's alca mix v2 which i think perhaps you hinted at but i want to dive into alchemix v2 in in more detail and the future future assets being added to alkamix as well and there are even more mental models i want to share about alcoholics because this thing is just a mental model just treasure trove there's so many things to talk about um and so we're gonna get into all of those things but first a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible bankless is proud to be supported by unit swap uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure instead of

a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy something brand new in the uni-swap ecosystem is the uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants we have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again dows have money and they are in need of labor if you think that you have something to contribute to the uniswap dow apply for a grant to uniswap just look at the size of the uniswap treasury it's almost three billion dollars this mountain of capital

is looking for labor do you have something of value to contribute to the uniswap dal no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply for a uni grant at unigrants.org and help steer uniswap in the direction that you think it should go that's exactly what we did to get unisoft to be a sponsor for bankless and you can do the same for your project thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange i've been a customer of gemiini since i first got into crypto in 2017 and it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto bison cells gemini is available in all 50 states and in over 50 countries worldwide and on gemini there are markets for over 30 various different crypto assets including many

of the hot defy tokens and it's one of the few exchanges that has liquid dye markets gemini just launched their earn program where you can earn up to 7.4 interest on 26 various crypto assets if you're tired of paying fees and defy or you don't want to worry about defy exploits but you still want to earn interest on your crypto assets gemini iron is the product for you another product i'm stoked to get my hands on is the gemini crypto back credit card which gives you three percent cash back on all of your purchases but paid to you in your preferred crypto asset when i get my gemini credit card i'm going to make sure that i get my cash back in eth so whenever i buy something i get a little bit of eth bonus back to me at the same time you can open up a free account in

under three minutes at gemiini.com go bank list and if you trade more than a hundred dollars within the first 30 days after sign up you'll be gifted a free 15 bitcoin bonus check them out at gemiini.com go bankless all right guys we are back with scooby triples again the most fun name to say in all of crypto twitter and uh scoopy has promised us some alpha and so scoopy i would like my alpha please if you could please tell us what this alpha is i'm really excited to hear about it all right you know i've been quite we've been quite secretive about v2 up until this point um so we're going to reveal some details not

all of them but some details about what we have in store for v2 uh exclusively to bank lists today and all the bankless listeners um we have a little teaser trailer prepared for this by our awesome artist and graphics designer snape so if we can uh just play this real quick here we go [Music] [Music] okay

wow that is awesome yeah so um for version two um we're going to be adding more collateral types rdts that we're going to be launching al eth possibly sometime in may version 2 will also uh will be bringing al btc to the table which will take you know wrap bitcoin uh as its collateral type um but version two let me get into that is a massive upgrade over version one um one of the key things that we have in version two is the fact that um al assets will become multi-collateral so all usd right now is only backed by die

version two will be backed by any viable stable coin um so you know usdc usdt etc and the cool thing is is that you know when you are creating your position in alchemix you can say hey i want to deposit 10 000 die 5000 susd 20 000 usdc 5000 tether and then it'll basically just add up all of the that total in aggregate aggregate forms let's say you have 50 000 of those tokens total then you can borrow 25 000 al usd so you can mix and match um we will be um scoopy can you can you mix and match not only staple coins but also like uh other

assets crypto assets like ethan bitcoin in that mix um so in the way it's going to work is still going to be mirrored just like in alchemix version one so stable coins will mint alley usd and then ethan its flavors will mint i'll eat and bitcoin and its flavors good point got it um and the cool thing here is though that you can um you can do a collateral swap so let's say that you have like 20 000 collateral in and die you say you know what i don't want to use diet right now or the yields on usdc are better so i'm just going to switch my collateral over to usdc instead of die now so then the contracts will take care of zapping that over to the correct currency and you know maintaining your position all the while

this is so that's something this is so cool and like i'm i'm sure that there is just like an endless amount of design space that you can build off with this because you know a alchemix usd position while the model is still the same with an ether or btc position the use cases could be incredibly different and then it also allows people to to just kind of pick and choose the collateral of their of their choice it kind of feels like a multi-collateral alchemics if you will whereas as maker dao started as just ether and then moved into many things alchemix is starting off with just dye and then is moving into many many collateral types what would you say it would be the the lowest hanging fruit use cases for something like al btc or al ether

um well let me get to that in a second um so back with the the multi-collateral al usd or just multi-collateral in general um it's we're going to most likely expanding beyond urine too so you'll be able to choose not only which collateral you want to use but also which yield provider so let's say like you know there's a hot new yield farm or you know you know aggregator comes out and offers like 40 interest you could say hey i want to put my my collateral into that you know so you can not only balance the collateral types but also their sources of yield so you can make you can mix and match your own risk profile in the system so there's that so for

al btc and al eth i think that they are going to become you know very similar to you know something like a maker dial where you can use it to get leverage you know on on your assets and stuff like that but it's also going to open itself up to hedging strategies really really really well so imagine you know you're an eth bull you don't want to sell your eat but you think that there might be some short-term price you know pain coming up for eat so you could mince some owl eat and then go to an options platform um you know something like premia or potion or hedgic or something like that and then you could hedge eath there so you know if heath goes down in

price then you'll be protected by buying that option um i think that's a big one right there or even just just shorting the market in general you think like hey it's time to cash out eth is ten thousand dollars i think we're overextended but i don't want to sell my heath just in case it keeps on going up so i'm going to borrow aleath and cash that out and then a couple years you know when the bear market's over i'll still have my whole stash and i'll have all this extra money i'm just like almost overwhelmed by the amount of creative use cases on top of this thing there's like there's like a playbook of possible possibilities that this unlocks the other cool thing about v2 is that it's going to be highly composable um we're going to make it so

that it's going to be really easy to integrate alchemics into your own protocol so you know very important imagine something like uh you know like ruler where you could deposit like right now in ruler like uh there's like the contracts have expiration dates and if you don't you know settle your debts and claim them and you know take care of all the things by the expiration date then you'll want to forfeit your collateral but imagine if ruler could offer a perpetual product using alchemics loans they could do that right um another thing that's really exciting is imagine if dowels build on top of alchemics so the dowel account like you know instead of putting it in moloch and then

you know let's say molecules like a million dollars and then people just you know slowly using that to fund whatever things that they're funding they could then put a million dollars into alchemics and then take a loan against it and use that to fund things for their dell so i think that that's also a really cool use case there for it unless you didn't participate venture funding to dowels treasury management i think it's going to be a nice tool for lots of people in d5 you know beyond just us and our core users i just have a curious maybe a side question here but um have there been any use cases around like tax implications around something so so i have talked to token packs okay uh about this we've had

some banter on twitter and on in dms as well and so when you originate the loan that is not taxable right because it's a loan but the debt repayments would be taxable as income really because it's yielding i was wondering if you could no i was just wondering if things that you could get out of that when this gets taxed nobody really knows is it when you withdraw your collateral or is it every time there's a harvest of yield right we don't know it's just i honestly ever tried to explain alchemics to you your accountant their their heads will just explode they're

like what what's going on right but it does it is interesting because of course if you just receive that yield most jurisdictions would just treat that as like ordinary income right if you're just receiving um yield from something like wire and this is different in that you're you're repaying the loan um but it's the protocol that's doing that be very cumbersome to have to treat each each atomic loan repayment as a as a tax event um but they'll catch up sometime i'm not a lawyer but i definitely think that you could probably get away with a lot using alchemics and this is the power of d5 defy

provides financial tools that maybe there was something like this for the the super wealthy but now it's available to to everyone everywhere and that's always what the power of defy is is financial tools to allow people to get what they want done in a way that works for them uh and so i really just see alchemix as a brand new money lego fitting right into the rest of this defy structure um scoopy i got i got a question i want to ask from uh from gravity out of the the youtube what about other flavors of ether not just ether but or wrapped ether but stuff like staked ether we have a staked ether out of lido and we have our ether coming out of rocket pool could these types of of interest-bearing ether units also be viable collateral inside of alchemics

um it that that's a tough question at the current moment i don't know if our eth or um or lido e would work because you can't actually um you know get those yields from eth2 just yet they're just kind of like virtualized and you know in the future when those are actually like on chain yields and that you can you know grab them from you know the validators and stuff like that then i think that that would open it up some more but right now um you know urine has ease vaults that actually take you know that utilize the lido like the st east vault so it's using you know their they're on you know their e2 yield um and also

lighter rewards to and curve rewards to uh drive its uh apy so that could be one of the uh the vault providers that we use for it um you know basically if there is a version that has like a vault associated with it it'll be something that can be used as a collateral type we kind of don't want to use like curve lp tokens as collateral types but it is something that we definitely could do scoopy while we're on listener questions this is another question that came in from twitter um what would prevent you this is from d5 dudes what would prevent you from creating a perpetual loop of depositing some assets say eth

using the yield that they provide to buy more and then putting it back in and so on and so forth so is there a way to create like i don't know a recursive loop recursive loop of withdrawing more and more yeah you can totally do this it's just leveraging your position uh your yield farming position in alchemics so the the idea is that you would you know deposit die then mint al usd then sell l usd for more die deposit more die then etc etc uh you can only go so far because it's sort of like if you um if you want to go to point a to point b and you go halfway there and then from that point you go halfway there and then from that point you're gonna go halfway through turns of doing that yeah very quickly

you might be able to do two or three loops before it starts to get you know you know not worth it anymore right and then what risk are you taking on when you do that something like that um i mean you're not taking on any additional risk um in doing this i mean you still have the same protocol risk that any other user would have in alchemics this loop though does increase your debt with each loop so while you might have a similar debt ratio you're not you know you still you'll have more aggregate debt so when you go to liquidate everything at the end you have to get out if you want to do it that way you're not going to end up with anything more the only way this strategy will be profitable is if you

write it out until uh the debt is completely repaid because then you know imagine you you put in a hundred thousand and then you levered up to like 190 000 after that repaid you would have 190 000. all right all to yourself so scooby i want to get too different from like alba femora in that respect yeah they do the same thing leveraging your your staples totally um so scoopy the the youtube chat box is blowing up about the alchemics token so i would be remissed if we didn't actually talk about the token explicitly usually when we're doing amas the we finish off with the question when token but alchemics already has a token um and so let's

let's talk about the role of the alkamix token in the alcomix application uh and uh i'll lea i'll lead in the question with saying that one of the reasons why i really like alchemics is that it's actually already collecting fees and putting it into the treasury um correct me if i'm wrong i'm pretty sure that's true and that treasury is monitored by the alchemics token um so let's go into the details about the alchemic token uh its distribution uh and and also the the current opportunities that um are awaiting alchemics token holders yeah yeah so um the alchemics uh alcoholics had a 480 000 alcx pre-mine uh going to the dow um a hundred thousand of that alcx is

earmarked just for audits and bug bounties and the other 300 000 or so some of that was used to see the liquidity pool on sushi swap and some of that was used in the in the strategic sale we did with our investors but we still have like around 350 000 alcx or so earmarked for the dow um and that will be up to uh community discretion and how we use that um but for the time being it's just locked funds and there for a rainy day in case we ever need it um we we um whenever we harvest yield from urine we take a 10 cut from that and also urine has an

affiliate program um that will uh they will do some profit sharing with people based on their tbl uh at our current levels we're getting 30 of the profit from urine so between our 10 harvest fee and the affiliate um we're pulling in um around somewhere between ten and twenty thousand dollars a day in protocol fees that's going to the treasury um and between what we've amassed from our protocol fees and from the strategic sales the treasury has uh 3.3 million uh dollars in addition to all of its alcx that it's holding and then that that money that we have and the treasury

is also earning yield and d5 as well so it's a beautiful thing beautiful thing um when we get to the alchemic style that's going to launch shortly after v2 that's when we will uh turn on the the profit sharing model for the uh alchemics token and when right now when you stake out chemics you just get alchemics rewards uh but when the dow happens you'll uh you know you'll get not only protocol fees but you'll also get alchemics rewards on top of that as well so you know we're going to pass that on to the alchemists holders and the devs have a good amount of alchemic so of course you know we'll you know we'll stake and

we'll earn our salary that way by you know harvesting protocol fees that way um but that also opens up to every other alcx holder out there is to to earn like a real cash flow on it and not have to to dump the token to to make money with it um there's actually something that i've been playing around with as a as a dow model you know how earlier i was talking about how dowels could make dowels on top of alchemics and do their treasury manage that way yeah well if we can grow our treasury tbl um high enough as far as like assets and eath and uh stable coins and bitcoin then we could just have the dow be a participant in alchemics and then stream the rewards it

gets via alchemics to alchemic stakers so imagine like right now the dow total amount of value it has including the alchemics tokens is somewhere around 500 million dollars imagine that we could convert that all into stable coins and then the dow itself holds 500 million dollars and then 500 million dollars earning 15 yield a year that's you know going to be something like 70 million a year of yield that we can pass on to alchemics holders it's perpetual funding using your own treasury yes um and then all the other users when they pay that 10 percent fee will then will be growing adding to the dow treasury as well including the dow itself because it's a participant in alchemics it will

snowball so that that's that's an idea that we have it would require that the dow would sell some of its tokens you know in order to raise those funds um so not really sure exactly how we're going to do this or even if we're going to do it this way or not but it is an idea that i i've been entertaining and i kind of like it because it's like dog fooding yes you get to eat your own dog food and i could see there are a lot of doubts with massive treasuries now i could see them definitely being interested in in something like what you're saying um it really seems like you're almost your customer base of the future is sort of doused um which is which is very fascinating

you know what this reminds me of scoopy a little bit is when david and i had uh hayden adams on from uniswap and just like there are some pieces of the story that are are kind of similar right so this is sort of uh hayden's first engineering project this is one of your first engineering projects which is so interesting like bootstrapped with a with a very small team sort of came out of nowhere um and grown so fast so alcomix is two months old am i getting that right scoopy yep uh two months yesterday two months old guys uh a billion in assets uh locked inside of the protocol and if if i'm right like calculation 20k per

day that's a annualized recurring revenue of uh 7.3 million like any traditional fintech startup any startup anywhere would kill for numbers like that two two months after launch this is a point that we keep um bringing up on bank list because it's so true the speed at which you can scale on defy and on ethereum rails is absolutely staggering you know p people kind of ask uh sometimes well aren't you aren't you concerned that the banks and maybe the regulators but especially the banks will try to shut this whole d5 thing down and i'm like no i'm not because they have no idea the speed at which this is

happening they're going to be taken completely off guard before they even get into their brains what defy actually is it's going to have completely blown past them so i'm i'm just really impressed with the speed at which you guys have have created this we've seen this before in other protocols that quickly find product market fit so like congratulations on that it's it's super cool to to share this story to the community but i want to ask the question were you surprised at how fast this picked up yeah i was blown away man like like i think what happened when when we launched you know i set my expectations i was like you know if we

can hit 100 million tbl by the end of the year that would be really cool right [Laughter] and then like i like a couple days after we launched we hit 100 million tbl and i started panicking i'm like what's going on i literally had like panic attacks i couldn't sleep because it's like you know we thought we were making a little boutique you know d5 project and here we are like top 20 on you know deep by llama you know we're not on d5 pulse just yet we're getting there but yeah yeah i noticed that you guys weren't there yet it seems to be ill-fitting scott scott get him on it and get him out we're in talks we're we're getting on we are getting on it's you know just the whole us not having an audit thing you

know it's just it's all happened so quickly we were reviewed by you know lots of coders uh including most of urine core um some other noteworthy legendary people who i shall not name um so i feel like we're really good on the security you know we've had like a billion dollar honeypot for two months now and nothing bad has happened so i think we're we're pretty good um you know but still they want to see that audit they want to see that that special badge scooby i want to go back to the alcamix token in the treasury just one last time because uh just just to re uh go back to the fact that alkamix actually collects fees which is uh relatively rare for a d5 protocol we all talk about the

potential to collect fees but algomix is actually doing it um how do we when you talked about actually paying out alcohol makes holders with you know payments how does how functionally how does that work because you're not just going to be sending on chain transfers of die pro rata to token holders how do how do token holders actually go and claim their revenue have you thought about this um yeah so in the dow we would just set up a reward contract in it and based on how much alcx that you're staking in the dell then you'll have a claim on you know the protocol revenue and that would probably be like you know uh deposited weekly because it wouldn't make sense deposit every day so just if you if you're familiar with the synthetic staking contract you can kind of set the

uh the rate for how many days it takes to uh to pay out the balance in it so you can set that to like a week load it up with that week's uh you know you know revenue and then you know seven days later load it up with the next week's revenue right and so like if you if you have alchemics but you have it like on an order book in coinbase or you are lp in uniswap you actually aren't getting those rewards you actually have to stake your alchemics tokens to the contract in order to take your share of the of the dividends is that the model yeah we're not sure if we're gonna over able to or if we're gonna do something similar to like sushi where it turns into like its own rap token um

some of the things that we're playing with as far as the mechanics of the dial it makes me believe that we're not going to be able to do that um because there's going to we're going to add like a security module to it very similar to ave so stakers in the dow you know in case there is a protocol hack you know they would uh you know get slashed a certain amount and then their tokens would be sold at auction to uh kind of uh you know make the dial or make the protocol whole again so there would be that um also there's a really interesting conviction voting mechanism that we've uh we've created um do you want me to get into that sure it's a bit much it's a lot going on with it but um i think it's working if

you think it's worth it yeah yeah it's something that we uh we want to really do in this um because right now like in governance um everything is basically just like token votes so it's just like whales win no matter what you know it's usually one or two big guys and they get to determine everything um and so and then the other option is doing quadratic voting you know which is you know you'll take the square root of how many tokens you have and that'll be your voting power the i like quadratic voting but it has a problem with it which is civil attack so let's say i have like 10 000 tokens i can split them up to 100 different accounts and therefore my quadratic penalty will be much much less and uh i think uh pickle who recently did release a jar for us uh and it's it's

very good it's very nice but pickle had quadratic voting and i know that there was one incident i think it was actually a community mod who [Music] who basically sibled his pickle across several different accounts to influence a vote um he got called out for it though but still kind of funny but it makes me not want to do quadratic because i think it's gameable so instead we're doing something as time based so when you're in the dow for every alcx you stake you'll get one material point every single day and you can stock those up for up to uh 30 days so if you have one elcx in the dow 30 days later you'll earn uh

you'll have 30 material points um and then material points can be used in two ways one they can be used for voting you know governance actions and stuff like that and the other thing is is since you know you only have a certain amount of them based on how much al-6 you have to take you can convert those into something called a materia shard and a material shard can't be used for voting but it can be used to buy nfts and other power-ups that you can use for your character in the dao oh wow this is crazy so you're making a like an rpg dao governance like mmo basically is that right yeah we want to make dallas fun right you know like i

don't think people are going to participate you know in high numbers if there's no reason to come back and check in every day and things like that for you know whatever is going on these things we want to gamify it um we're going to you know we're we're deciding on how exactly we can do that and i'm afraid if i leak what we have right now it might change uh you know with more development so i don't want to say anything more but you know there's going to be a number of interesting mechanics uh using that that that system hopefully can add a little extra value to alcx um beyond you know dividends and you know governance uh just quick question on that conviction voting so these materia

tokens are they not able to be bought and sold though material points are non-transferable they won't even be a token it'll just be a value i see and then when you convert those to shards shards will be tradable with anybody freely but they cannot be used for voting very interesting that's a very interesting dynamic is is is the alchemics community the one like pioneering this or do you are you seeing baby convictions is kind of my baby this has been years of me thinking about dowels and thinking about defy and me wanting to build something i want to build very cool well you got to come back and talk to us about that once that comes to fruition there's going to be all sorts

of interesting gal mechanisms that need to be built rather than uh you know token weighted vote that is um we already have that in the traditional system so requires some i think new thinking and defy mm-hmm yeah so like with the conviction voting let's say you have you know your 30 days empty stored up and then a vote that you really care about comes up you can spend all of your points on that one vote so it does swing the ballot balance of power a little bit to the masses versus you know the the whales because they can team up and use their their time weighted voting points to to influence something very cool scoopy as we come to a close here is there any part of the alchemics

protocol either current or future that we haven't touched on yet that you think deserves some time um i didn't go through all of my things that i could leak today oh well we'll take more [Laughter] and this is another v2 thing okay um and i'm not going to go into much detail about this it'll be perfect perfect to end on how about that yeah so imagine like when you when you deposit into the uh to alchemics you then basically have a credit line available to you right that you can use or choose not to use right if you don't use it it just you know you'll just end up with more usd credits than you can

get from it that's how the yield will be uh you know distributed to you but what if you could delegate your credit to someone else interesting imagine what could be built with that right why would i want to do that scoopy well you know you could make money on your al usd doing that for one um but i don't want to go into too much we have a number of modules that we're going to build using this idea and if i give you if i answer that question i'd be giving too much away well scooby you have given us plenty on

this podcast so thank you for saving that alpha for the bankless ama and that that reminds me of this one last mental model that i have that i think i want to share to to finish up on is that say you have your your die savings that you've saved uh and and you deposit that into alchemics and like you said there's a alchemix offers you a line of credit on your savings and you never actually have to sell your savings in order to actually spend money and so to me the alchemics like uh yield rate which is getting from yearn is like to me this permission to go and spend this much money which without it being irresponsible spending because you are keeping your principle right and so say you put in 50 000 die you get a 25 000

line of credit so you can go to vegas and gamble on you know blackjack right and that's not maybe that's not responsible but it's not completely irresponsible because you still have your principle right and so that that 25 000 that you spent starts to re-accrue its interest rate based on the yield and so after you just blew away 25 000 you wait a couple months and then you have a couple more thousand dollars from the yield that was generated for you and so it actually alchemics allows you to meter yourself with your spending based on the interest rates that it's getting for you and so you can you're only spending your interest you're only spending your interest and if you only spend your all usd that's generally being generated from your die

you are never spending outside of your own means right you are always it's a self-management system and i think that's really cool so like you can you can go to your nine to five you can make all your dollars you can transfer into die you can put that die more into alchemics you can extend your credit and your rate of consumption without actually ever spending your savings uh and so i think i think that's a nice mental model to to go out on scooby anything you want to add on to that yeah i like alchemics as like a rainy day fund you know imagine like you have like ten thousand dollars saved up you know just in case something bad happens then boom you you know you get hit by a car unfortunate and now you have five thousand dollars a credit card of hospital bills

you know you could just take that through all comics and be like all right uh in a few more years i get hit by another car [Laughter] boating accidents and car accidents today unfortunate things happening to our listeners ryan we have an answer to your question another thing i like is like a family uh you know imagine they have you know savings that they they have uh for for like family vacations and you know they could you know finance their vacations using an al usd loan and then a year or two later they could have enough for another vacation all right ryan we have an answer to your question why would i want to delegate my uh my credit to someone else and somebody

somebody in d5 donut in the in the youtube says you can give your kids their allowance trickled to them in al usd [Laughter] well there you go all the parents out there it's a good way to uh teach your kids d5 while teaching them personal finance responsibility uh scoopy drupals this has been an absolute pleasure thanks for creating something so interesting and so unique it's been great to have you on bank list thanks for having me here this has been a lot of fun for sure all right guys it sounds like some big things are coming down the pike for alchemics uh scoopy triples dropped the alpha today i've gotta end with this of course risks and disclaimers guys eth is risky ethereum is risky so are d5 protocols like alchemics you're getting

exposed to things like smart contract risk and composability risk that we talked about in the show and you could lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but thanks for joining us on the bankless journey okay we're done cool thanks scooby yeah and for some reason the second stream went as beautifully as we wanted the first stream to go so um thankfully the stream didn't cut out while you were talking so i think we're just gonna leave that video up there and it's going to have like a weird intro but then the the full podcast is going to go out on the podcast tomorrow

[Laughter] awesome you