AMA with Evgeny Yurtaev, Co-Founder of Zerion

Transcript

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gemini.com go bank list and if you trade more than a hundred dollars within the first 30 days after sign up you'll be gifted a free 15 bonus check them out gemiini.com go bankless all right bankless nation welcome to another community ask me anything this is your opportunity to ask questions of d5 founders and interesting projects we have evgeny on from xerion xerion is an interface to all sorts of d5 protocols i probably use this tool on a daily basis it's a great way to view assets across all of your various d5 wallets and to actually manage transactions i'd be kind

of lost without this tool um this is your opportunity to ask questions of yevgeny so if you have a question go ahead and uh you know comment in youtube david or i will get to it we'll prioritize it um and if you're in the backless discord as well you can ask a question that way and that's mainly for the periscope uh people if you are watching this on twitter that's fantastic but if you want to engage with the youtube comments and get your comments to you afghani you got to go to the youtube welcome to bankless it is great to have you we are in a crypto bull market i think my friend but you were building this during the bear market weren't you what was that like uh it was actually way more calmer and

thanks so much for having me it's it's great to be on the show and actually this is my first live ama uh so i'm excited for this fantastic yeah it was during the bear market i kind of like it because you know people are not running around and like screaming about the prices so it's much easier to build you just like you you forget about the price for a long time and you can actually focus on uh building stuff um and this is like the currency of the bear market is like what you ship shipped versus like how much it's worth uh but yeah i don't i don't mind the bull market either obviously so um it's good to meet her you know so since this is your first ask me anything um i think it would be great for the bankless community to kind of get to

know you so can you tell us a little bit about your crypto journey how did you end up here yeah sure so in short i think crypto has been throughout my life like the only big thing in my in my whole life so um apart from of course like engineering and so i started as a software engineer myself like i was studying and like i did a few internships uh here and there uh but then like since i discovered crypto that became my whole thing and like the biggest part of my life in a sense um and specifically i think ethereum was the most exciting um thing among all of all the crypto things simply because when i discovered bitcoin it was just you know it was great as a concept but i couldn't see how i can participate apart from

just holding it and that seemed like a very boring thing to do so when ethereum came around i guess many software engineers felt that that you can actually start writing things on top of this machine and that is you know groundbreaking concept so this is how i got into it um my co-founders they are also fascinated by the concept so we just got together and wanted to do something we didn't know like yet what's gonna happen but uh we really wanted to be a part of this journey so it's it's been since like 2015 i think we've been um on this um and uh yeah we never we never stopped since we started and so what

what's the idea behind xerion like um you know did did you envision it would become what it is today or did did it start with a different premise why did you decide to to build it and like what is it yeah so first of all of course like any product is a series of iterations but i think the core ideas and the core concepts that we had in mind when we built this particular product were there and they're still here um um while we're making changes to it so essentially when we started we noticed this fragmentation like we knew that it's it's not there yet in a sense because like we we've only tried out what you swap and maker and compound i think by the time

but we just realized that it's going to be a way more things on in this defy thing so people will need tools to make sense of it and looking at the number of tokens that are appearing on the blockchain it's like in thousands uh every single day now probably like it wasn't thousands months before and given number of protocols you know just to compare that in 2019 we integrated about five protocols in the whole year and then in 2020 we integrated over 50. i actually i lost so that is like just to show you the scale of how many new financial instruments are appearing so um i think in the future it's similar to how internet was

uh evolving so you know in in the beginning you only had a few websites out there and people knew them all by heart in a sense but then you have you know this explosion of new different things and you need to keep track of them you need to find them you need to evaluate them and that's uh that's what zirin helping you to do so um we help keep to you to keep track of your d5 portfolio we help you discover all new assets and we help you execute the trades uh at the lowest rates possible so yeah that's that's the core premise of syrian so you have gunny i want to i want to hear from you how you would explain zirion to somebody who you know knows about bitcoin maybe they've heard of a theory maybe not but they are they

and they understand that there's this weird crazy thing called crypto how would you explain zeroing on to somebody like this with this sort of understanding and so i think what i'm asking is like for people that are looking for like legacy mental models to map onto how would they understand xerion and then maybe after you're done explaining that to them how would you explain the the features of zirion that xerion has that they would never be able to find in the legacy world yet they could probably still resonate with yeah i think the the closest to in the traditional world is i think many people use this analogy something like robin hood uh so looking at jiren it's an asset management tool it's an investing app so you can find any asset you can click to buy it and we were actually we're

inspired many like ui decisions and ux decisions by robin hood and other um investment investment apps so essentially i think this is the closest uh as an analogy as it gets um in terms of like how what are the features that zirin has i think the biggest one is this you know it's the whole narrative of web3 how you have um an address that you plug in and you instantly get all the data kind of it comes with this address right away so you don't have to start it over again you don't have to deposit money again so this gives you a whole lot of freedom and the people who are complaining about the ux of crypto they just haven't tried it fully so you they haven't really used it much so once you get to to use

metamask on a daily basis you get to you know understand how frustrating it is to sign up every time and like connect your credit card and connect your you know fill out the details of your account and everything so i think this is the biggest benefit and uh just us as a company we we're taking a lot of advantage off of that because we can get a bunch of information just from the blockchain and users are getting this amazing user experience right away and all the assets they're all public on chain all the transactions are still there so you don't need to build out this your relationship with the user and your journey with the user is actually much much shorter so you can start quickly and start helping them quickly uh and

this gives and for the users as well this is beneficial because they can you know if the ux really sucks they can just switch um and uh i think this keeps us even though it's like a lot of competition and it's harder to make money off of that and like be rent seeking but i think that's a good thing overall and crypto will win because of that you know another analogy i like uh evgeny is like the early internet type of analogy that that you talked about in the early internet there were just a few websites to keep track of now like in crypto there's d5 there's all of these different money protocols to keep track of zurion is almost like a a netscape navigator i feel like right so you kind of all you have to do is completely

non-custodial right so all you have to do is bring your etherdress whether that's on a hardware wallet or whatever wallet you have in metamask whatever you have and then you just plug it in and then the world of d5 kind of opens up to you you get a bird's-eye glance of all of the assets inside of your portfolio you have the ability to interact with these various uh d5 protocols and money legos do you what do you think of that analogy right so like netscape really helped to mainstream the um the chaos and the navigation of the early internet right and so a user interface like xerion is kind of helping to to mainstream this internet of money that is defy

i really like that analogy um but i still i would probably say that banamask is this netscape browser uh as a better analogy at this moment so um for for ourselves of course we're currently non-custodial but for for the new users where like we think that at some point we'll roll out the support of the wallet itself so people will be able to create a world on xirian and uh hence they can explore other interfaces outside of the of zero eventually so um i really hope that zoom turns out to be you know chrome browser rather than netscape but i think that's it's a great analogy we've been thinking about that for a while uh you know the dap browser id did not materialize which is you know a bit sad i would say but kind of

expected um and i think what do you mean by the dap browser what was that uh so with the dab browsers you know how on mobile phones all the wallets they were trying to push this like the app browser uh thing inside their wallet but like the usage is really low and it's much harder to kind of um to trust the websites and and everything that's why actually we with the xirian app now it acts like a depth like a native app rather than um a website inside of that browser if that makes sense it does yeah i don't know if people are familiar with the adapt browsers you're talking about but like i get the picture of like i remember in 2017 like the state of the art was something like the coinbase wallet on mobile and it was fashioned very much

after like an app store type model right very skeuomorphic to like um what came before which was an app store so it would have like little tiles that you would and it wasn't very crypto native it wasn't very user friendly you could do a lot with it exactly and i think later on apple also went after these types of browsers so they pretty much kicked everyone out um if you were trying to replicate some sort of app store functionality within your app so i i think on ios it resulted in all the wallets deleting their web browsers which essentially means that your crypto is locked and you cannot do much uh with your crypto if you have a mobile wallet so yeah i think that so

that's like one of the reasons why we wanted to have this wallet connect connection to all the wallets natively on mobile so you can actually start doing more things with your money uh even if they're on on your mobile phone so i want to get into some of these questions that we're getting in from the youtube and the first question i i i think is a good question to start with is uh we are curious as to how xerion monetizes how do you how do you guys actually fund the business do you take transaction fees on actions executed by xerion that's uh that's a good question um we get it quite quite a lot uh so at the moment xirian does not earn pretty much anything um i would say that so um for full transparency the only thing that

we're currently making is the referral fees by one inch so whenever we post the trade to one inch they share some of the revenue that they generate from the transaction and they share i think about 27 of the um positive slippage that they take so this is not something that we really like um wanted and envisioned as a long-term business model but this is just something that happens and we only we didn't make too much out of that the the largest i mean the only way we're funded is by the vc money at this point so we took um money from placeholders our lead investor about a year and a half ago and uh yeah we're still running off of that money

what are the possible models uh for you into the future have you given any thought to that and of course the topic if it hasn't been asked in youtube it's about to be asked about like the potential for a token as a consideration what are the possible models what have you guys batted around uh is the idea of some sort of a token appealing to you or not yet yeah so starting with the models that we'll start explaining remaining as soon as like q1 of this year is actually taking the transaction fees but we want to be we don't want to be rent seeking as i said before because it doesn't make sense the users would just you know leave us if we're trying to be uh you know squeeze the fees uh into everything so what we we will be doing the fees

only on the things where it makes sense when we're actually helping the user so uh imagine you're trying to buy like a a wide earned strategy that is like it takes you you would need otherwise to make about like three to four transactions in order to execute that uh or you would get a lower rates or you need to manually go to some other aggregators to find the best rate first to exchange and then only to deposit into the strategy so stuff like that where we are simplifying uh the experience and making you your life easier then i think it's justified with justifiable that we take the fee so this is something that we we have in mind for the short term i think in the longer run um yeah we can talk about the token so uh

we're definitely not anti-token uh we we like the ideas of tokens and we think that pretty much any company um in the crypto space is going to have a token at some point or like die in a sense um because like you know because this is just a new way of um doing equity i would say um and i think it's inevitable that uh this is just a better instrument to do equity and uh it makes perfect sense for us it's better to reward users using that uh and it's much more flexible and you can be you know as crazy uh in terms of actual implementation and the model itself um we first will never do the token just for

the sake of the token so this is like definitely not our plan um and uh the airdrop like people are going crazy on twitter asking about the head drops we are considering that so i'll just say that so keep using zero if you want to be part of that drop but i don't i'm not making any promises here of course of course let's say that so evgeny a token has can do almost anything because that's the power of ethereum that's the power of tokens yet we've seen tokens um be tools to achieve the decentralization of some aspects of a project right it's a way to turn governance over from a centralized team to the hand of the token holders right what things about the xerion platform do you think you could hand over control to

a set of token holders have you guys thought about this yeah so this is the biggest challenge i would say so we are not a typical d5 protocol company so if we're taking compound or like maker this is pretty much all of their business is on chain so it's much easier to you know just decentralize the governance over that stream of money and have it all worked out by the and controlled by the token so with our case most of the value is actually not on chain so we only have pretty much a small portion at this point on chain and most of the things are happening either on the front end or on like or the data that is streamed on the from the back end so this is the biggest challenge that we see and um for

i think there are not many examples at this point when companies like ours were able to introduce the token that was um like representing the core or portion of the business and um i think we're going to continue to work on that so i think the easiest way for us is to decentralize governance over the d5 sdk so different sdk is becoming a more and more important piece of the xerian stack so um essentially pretty much any balance that you see um on the protocol is fetched through the d5 sdk so this this is what we call read adapters uh and yeah just for the ones who don't know about the d5 is the gate let me just take a step back here so the default sdk is the smart contract layer that we've

built that allows you to first fetch all the balances from across different d5 protocols as well as execute all multiple different actions across different protocols and whatever is the only thing that is needed for the d5 sdk to work with the new protocol is this adapter and it can be built by either us and we have will build most of the adapters i would say um by this point but we're starting to get more and more protocols building the adapters themselves and uh thank you guys for for doing that if anyone is listening from the protocol side so this is really helpful helping us because we just you know we we look at the pull request and we click um to push it and now we have this new support for the new protocol that we

have we haven't really even researched so essentially this allows us to mix and match all the different transactions through the same smart contract layer and we are already routing the one-inch trades through the d5 sdk and we'll add uni swap trades and sushi trades through that layer two so that means that pretty much any transaction that is uh involving the trade on zirin will go through this layer and it will be as cheap as going through the native smart contracts so that is like the big benefit um and we'll continue to do to kind of unify the interaction layer through the define sdk on xero which will allow us to essentially see all the transactions

that are generated by the zeroing ui and hence uh understand how we can distribute the governance over the adapters within the defines decay and the fees that if we potentially take them on the d5k level so that is like the simplest path uh to token that we see at the moment um but we're actually i think we're just lacking the tools at the moment in terms of the decentralizing control over github for for instance so that would be of course ideal but it's it's not we're definitely not there yet so imagine having a token token holder is controlling what kind of code is running on the back end and this would be amazing uh so if we if we can't have like the team that was rewarded by the

token holders in a sense and like just shares the part of the profit goals to the team that maintains the back-end system that allows you to find the best uh trade so yeah all of that is just a distant future that is a bit hard to envision right now i think but it's uh it's going to be there at some point so you were talking about the the defy sdk and um this might be my naiveness about um technical level details but we have a question from the youtube about uh whether or not xerion uses uh the graph uh in in uh the the protocol does what you were talking about about querying data using the the d5 sdk again that this might be naive but does does that have to do with something similar

to the graph and do you guys use the graph in your back end we so we that's a good question first of all and we currently do not use the graph and we have we have built the system which is pretty much similar to what the graph has but it's more tailored towards the defy use case um so the graph is kind of like the the one backhand trying to fit at all so they allow you to essentially extract logs from different smart contracts and you can build the back end based on the graph and query the data using the graph but um stuff like cross associating between protocols and building your own things on top of the graph is becoming harder so it's essentially a lot of

customization needed in order to create an interface like syrian so we have so we we actually started the zero back in the infrastructure long long before the graph was published like um public and so that means that you know we have built pretty much the same or sometimes even more than the graph has allowing us to do a lot of stuff that other interfaces cannot do this this middleware piece is like absolutely necessary for the kind of stuff that you're doing are there other so you've got the graph you've got your d5 sdks are there other kind of middleware layers um out there that are i don't know if competing is the right word but like

um yeah what's the what's the what's the middleware layer look like for somebody who's trying to build something on d5 right now um there are actually not many um so defense decay is is the smart contract solution to that but deep sdk is not um does not fully solve the problem because it only allows you to fetch let's say balances on you know stake balances or deposits in multiple protocols but there are a lot of things like you know asset prices or historical portfolio performance so stuff like that and matching that with pricing is is more complicated i think in a way dune analytics is similar so they allow you to query a bunch of data

and like use sql to extract whatever data you you want but it's definitely not real time as you probably know um so i think at the moment there are not many alternatives to what we have as an api um probably i think the closest one uh alchemy has some form of an api for like querying balances but it's definitely not as t5 focused as what we have i want some people who maybe are less technical maybe zoned out a little bit when we were talking about apis and sdks that sort of thing i i want you guys to realize how important what um like sdks and these apis actually are because this is the type of stuff that got built out during the last two years of the bull market that

essentially needed to be built out bear market excuse me um that needed to be built out in order to enable something like zerion today and now it's built and other apps can essentially use that same scaffolding like we have some of the highways in place that we didn't have back in 2017 2018 so it's got to make building a lot faster this cycle and i think like it well i i'd actually like your thoughts on that um so andre from wi-fi recently put out a post saying like uh some i figured the title is like billion d5 sucks right part two yeah okay what's your experience building in d5

does it suck um i would say no um i think i think the biggest reason is that we don't have a token yeah okay and he he in his post he is complaining quite a lot about the token specifically of how token came into his life and the pretty much made a big mess there and this is like a one worry that we have about the token of course is that this does slow down the process so when when you're the sole decision maker in in the whole thing it's allow it's allowing you to move much faster and that's why like you know building does not suck because you only making whatever you like in a sense but over a

long time of course it's better to have multiple people who are responsible for the decision and involved in decision making so i think it's it's kind of natural that he's saying that um yeah our experience i think fundraising in my in my experience sucks but uh everything about building is great you have jenny i was curious how zurion measures its um growth and its success right so you might look at a d5 protocol like uniswap and measure it by trading volume right that's something aidan adams puts out quite frequently you might look at something like like maker and compound and measure total locked value assets under management that sort

of thing for xerion is it number of users is it number of wallets like a wallet being like almost like a d5 bank account is it assets inside of the platform how do you measure growth and success and how what has the trajectory been like yeah so we actually use multiple different metrics and kpis that we find important i think the the one that is the easiest to track is the number of users um and that will measure by how many people connected their wallets so we would identify the user as someone who connected at least one bullet to the zero in ui and that the trajectory of that metric is uh almost parabolic i would say uh

obviously like over the summer we had a bunch of new people coming into the d5 with the yield farming craze and they needed tools to watch the portfolios now it is another bull market and it's more of the crypto side less of on the defy side but at the same time people are now discovering all these new different assets so they are you know sharing zero links to different assets just like they would use you know coin gecko or coin market cap but this time they can start buying them right away from the same experience so you see the price performance and you can buy it right away so i think this is helping us quite a bit in terms of funneling the traffic into the product um and yeah in like in december we had over 50

3 000 people using us across three platforms so we find that and this is probably like a very underestimation in terms of the number because a lot of people use ad blockers and stuff so we don't know the actual number uh and it's uh by looking at the comparing the on-chain volume with actual analytics that we have we see that the discrepancy is up to 50 so it might be that you know it's it's the number is much much bigger than that but overall yeah we're pretty happy with this growth in terms of the users and we're hopeful that in the next year it's gonna you know continue to be the case um but other metrics that are more interesting in our view is the market share that we started to measure

recently and we do that by looking at the on-chain data so we with each protocol all the data is public which is great so you can start looking at how many users interacted with a particular protocol and how many of these users were using zero in a given month so say we we identify users and by users i mean wallets in this case so wallets that interact let's say with four different protocols in a given months and among these users we have over 40 percent so we call them you know power defy users and these are like among power defined users about 40 percent user in uh every month so that is uh like one metric that

we look at we also look at we call them active device users uh who use at least two protocols and uh among these we have over 20 something i don't remember the exact number um yeah percent so that is what we look at and of course the transaction volume is kind of like the recent thing we started looking at since the release of the trading the full trading experience um in the late september um but yeah that that's the three things that we're keeping our our eyes on so you have guinea um we have we have crypto banks like coinbase where like that's kind of where people get started when they are trying to like get into the world of crypto and they want to

keep that familiarity it's like oh yeah i know how to operate coinbase it kind of works like my wells fargo and i think that's using crypto in like the 2d sense right like the relatively unimaginative sense and i think like xerion is like a new sort of like crypto bank account crypto bank in the 3d sense in the sense that like you actually have the ability to load up your bank account into like the xerion portal right into the xerion interface but in that same model like you know crypto banks and actual normal bank banks and also like legacy brokers they have leverage when they have more people using their product right if they have more capital flowing through wells fargo flowing through trading view flowing through like whatever

charles schwab they have more leverage they can get better like market prices what does that model exist as well with xerion when more people use xerion are you guys able to like advocate for your users for better rates or like what what are you able to do uh in a more advantageous fashion when more people use xerion yeah i think this model is pretty much the same so i i'm hopeful that in in d5 we're going to have something more smart in terms of the business models but i think the exact concept applies so looking at one inch for instance they are already doing that so whenever you get a quote you sometimes get a quote from private market maker as they call it so essentially that is something that only

they were able to to get for their users because these private market makers are providing these quotes only for one inch users and especially for like bigger chunks and bigger bigger trades and the similar thing happens with with zirin so as we get more and more trading volume we would be able to secure the deals with market makers in this space and provide better quotes and um yeah i think this is like the most straightforward path to to getting like more value out of um more usage but at the same time i think as we as we enter the era of l2s we're going to have even more trading volume and l2s are in a sense more separated than the shared liquidity in the l2 of

ethereum so then i think that will be even more of a thing so being able to actually having all these users on your platform and trading will have a direct impact on what kind of quotes and trades they're getting on the specific layer 2 solutions so that is a bit unfortunate uh that we cannot really share all the all the liquidity um but i think um overall we will figure something out and something probably more interesting than just commissions and fees will arise as the business model okay um we are going to be back for this bankless community and ama in just a minute but first we want to tell you about our fantastic sponsors who made

this possible synthetics is ethereum's decentralized derivatives liquidity protocol what does that mean synthetics is a platform for creating and trading synthetic assets which are assets that are priced via an oracle rather than bids or asks traders can use the quenta exchange which hosts and trades all of the synthetic assets created by synthetics traders on cuenta can trade synthetic tokens like sbtc s oil or sd5 because quenta is powered by synthetics traders experience zero slippage on their trades no i didn't mean low slippage i meant no slippage because that is the power of the synthetics platform no slippage on your trades you can also easily short assets with

isynths which are synthetic assets that move inversely to their target asset synthetics isn't just for traders developers can build on synthetics to access the infinite liquidity offered by synthetic assets or investors can stake collateral to the protocol and earn fees that the protocol collects if you're a trader and you're looking for a trading platform and not found in the legacy world check out cuenta.io if you're a developer or you just want to earn yield on your collateral go to www.synthetics.io where you can stake your snx or eth and earn fees from synthetics if you want to live a bankless life you need to get a monolith defy visa card monolith is a one-two punch of both an

ethereum smart contract wallet and an accompanying visa card that lets you spend the money that you have in your ethereum wallet everywhere where visa is accepted when you swipe your monolith visa card at the grocery store or at a restaurant it actually makes a transaction on the ethereum blockchain that spends some of the money you hold in your monolith wallet it's insanely cool and it's one of the best tools out there for living a bankless but still normal life monolith also offers on-ramp services for getting your fiat money into the world of defy so it's trivial to top up your monolith card if you ever need to and your deposited money goes straight into your non-custodial wallet so your money is never held by a centralized intermediary because monolith is native ethereum

infrastructure the money you hold in your monolith wallet still has the power of d5 behind it swapping assets on uniswap or earning yield in d5 is at your fingertips go to monolith.xyz and sign up to get your monolith visa card today guys we are back with this community ama we have yep jenny from xerion and we are talking all about the xerion platform and what it can do so just before our sponsor break you were talking a little bit about layer two and i think that's top of mind for bankless users right now and defy users in general because gas fees are too damn high right now it's

it's very hard to get our transactions out um and it's expensive to do so um but ethereum is developing this whole layer two world that you alluded to can you paint a picture of what that world might look like and how xerion might be involved as sort of an aggregator across these layer two chains yeah for sure and speaking of the gas prices by the way i think that that really helps the ethereum price go go up because whatever people trying to sell it's too too much gasoline exactly exactly so we gotta keep that for a while um so with l2's yeah

uh being serious here so with with ltu's um i think this is the first i want to describe the experience and how that might i think the good analogy is uh imessage i know you've tried that um but um essentially whenever you make you send an sms you get this green bubble and it takes a pretty long time to to deliver while with imessage you instantly instantly click and it sends right away so i think that is going to be that's how it's going to feel with l2 uh and all the transactions because all of the people in the crypto space they kind of got get used to the fact that your transaction is you know taking you know 15 seconds or so to mine sometimes a bit more and uh yeah this is this is fine but sometimes gets frustrated when

you're trying to actually execute on a really important trait so over a long time i think most of the trading volume pretty much all of it will be concentrated on the l2 solutions and there at the moment there are probably over six different l2 um different approaches that exist in the ethereum space and um yeah and so so that's the part we're worried about right so i think we see the promised land of an l2 where transactions are fast and cheap but we're worried about it breaking composability breaking all the money legos that we developed on the main chain yeah so as i was saying so essentially we've been just speaking with uh quite a few teams and i think the general

consensus among them that over a long time uh it's gonna be possible that all these l2 solutions will be interoperable or at least some of the most important ones will be interoperable and uh will have the same right uh future for the for the default space so you don't have to and in a way they're all going to be interrupted by the fact that that you can withdraw from the layer two and deposit into some other layer two so this is like one step um but it will probably be you know slow and not so efficient and i think over time with potentially the help of aggregators like zirin you'll be able to instantly move from one layer two to the other without actually the need to move back to the layer one so i think this is a the place where aggregators will play a

good like a big role and same goes to existing trading experience on layer one just like one inch is better than just going on a single dex so you imagine a world where just as xerion has aggregated all of these different d5 protocols on ethereum you're also aggregating all of these layer twos yeah so we only started starting on this journey so you probably have heard that uh layer two are only spinning up and like there are a few announcements planned for this year and we're gonna see i think that this year is going to be the year of l2s and we're the first thing that we're going to start with is just supporting the balances across these different way or two solutions and among the most popular ones and then as this ecosystem

develops we'll start adding actual trading functionality to the z to allow zero users to exploit like you take advantage of the lower fees um on the l2 solutions well i was told that this is going to be the year of lightning so that's going to be an interesting take to see what happens all right so again we got we have a number of quick questions i want to burn through out of the out of the youtube channel um first is i would like to ask about the graphing system that you have on the site are there plans to integrate charting tools like trading view oh uh we actually i don't think we have considered that really um we did think about it for a bit but we

really didn't take this seriously i think the best way to proceed with that is to publish that on roadmap.0.io and try to get the supporters to upload that so um if if you do we're happy to integrate that as well so we just so far i haven't seen too much of a demand for this but i don't think it is something unfeasible okay and then we have two questions about integrations when will pool together be integrated into the xerion ui and then also somebody's asking about uh celsius celsius network staked assets also viewable through the xerion dashboard so on the pull together we do track balances as far as understand we don't support the actual like the lottery functionality but

like i think the answer is the same so if you want to get something um integrated it's either if you are a solidity developer yourself you can build an adapter for that and that that is the easiest path for us to integrate otherwise we just didn't see too much of a demand and pull together ui is great for their use case and it's less of a you know financial one i would say okay so that kind of leads into this question how do you guys decide which protocols to integrate and with so many new ones being built yeah so we we are looking at quite a lot on the as i said the road map that's really where people are super helpful zero community is very active and our users are constantly just telling us

what protocols we should be focusing and paying attention to so this is i think the most straightforward way we do that otherwise we of course do our own research so whenever we see something cool happening and whenever we feel like this is something we should worth supporting within the ui as fast as possible we try to get it done quickly um yeah and so far there's no i think we're trying to get as many things as possible so it's not that we're being discriminated if in any form uh it's yeah but at some point i hope that most of the things will go through the d5 sdk route to so people and protocols they will integrate things themselves uh and we wouldn't even need to worry about

that um yeah so one question i have that and this is seems to be a pretty big problem in the in the in the space as a whole is because there's there seems to be one a difficulty finding a single source of truth especially with regards to crypto prices right um so if i load up my wallet into xerion and then if i load up my wallet into zapper and then if i also look at my wallet on ether scan or any other like platform it'll tell it'll give me some sort of like you know one to two percent discrepancy on the price of these things and so i would imagine that like accounting and getting prices uh accurate is a really difficult task can you talk about like with the difficulty behind uh behind that uh achieving that goal and and what you

guys are working on to refine that yeah for sure and this is actually the biggest problem that we're trying to solve so and being presenting the accurate portfolio is it seems like an easy task because all the data is on the blockchain right but uh in fact it's not uh i think that the biggest challenge is the pricing as you said so uh you can fetch pricing from multiple sources and there is i think one reliable source that we we think is great is coin gecko we use it for many different assets but even coin gecko sometimes does not track the prices of weird things and all that live on the blockchain so for that you have to use union swap sometimes or sometimes

these assets are not on unit swap so you have to use some other source so essentially this is the biggest issue and building something that would be able to keep track of all different price sources um and aggregate across them and probably take volume into account so that is uh that is a challenge and there's no not many companies are were successful have successfully built something in in this area um and second is just understanding what kind of assets the wallet has so because because of the nature of blockchain you cannot tell that a specific token belongs to a certain address you need to first find this asset on the blockchain somewhere and uh

on the blockchain there are so many different assets and they appear every day and we as an infrastructure we we use uni swap as our source of finding new different tokens so as soon as the someone pulled puts um a swap pool uh we decide that this asset isn't like a particular token that is worth tracking so that that's how we solve this issue and i i think this is the biggest issue the biggest discrepancy where the biggest discrepancy comes from between us and zapper because dapper manually white lists all the different tokens and we try to find them automatically on the blockchain as soon as they appear on uni as well but this system is of course not complete and we'll we will need to track more

sources and more contracts and ideally we need to look into every smart contract that is deployed understand that this is a token and then start fetching the price so that is like the two biggest issues i think in finding the balance i will tell you guys have done a very good job a hidden use case i discovered for xerion uh this year was figuring out how to figuring out what i actually did in my d5 transactions right in order to like calculate taxes right like try to figure that out on ether scan very difficult to understand what you actually did in a year if you're an active defy user but zeran has this great sort of history where it kind

of categorizes all of your transactions you can look through and actually figure out what you did and even like click a button and export that to your tax software so it's it's stuff like that that just makes defy using d5 much more user friendly it's like indispensable i don't i don't know if you envisioned that as a use case but it's something that i kind of just discovered this year through using xerion yeah we actually when we were designing the history page we didn't think that it's gonna have this much success as it has now this is like i think the feature that most of the people mention when talking to you

yeah so um speaking of the history page calculating taxes was was one thing that you know the token tax suggested we do and we did it in a very you know uh but it turned out to be a big and useful feature oh can you hear me by the way i think my connection sounds uh yeah we can hear you it's not it's not perfect your video is paused but uh so far the audio is good enough mm-hmm so i i'll have a follow-up question to that zirion excuse me are we are we still assembling oh i think we're i think we're coming back slowly but surely i'm going to take a pause here i i can hear you there we go okay cool um so what other than getting accurate

pricing data what is what are the other hard problems that you guys are trying to solve like what else is like the you know the big obstacle that you guys are trying to overcome um there are some i would say like challenges that are similar to the i think the early internet um that are only starting to kind of um present themselves at the moment and this is like we only had let's say 300 wallets and addresses using d5 stuff by by this moment probably a bit more maybe like 500 000 but this is a very small number uh and the number of assets that we currently have it's still kind of small so it's like in probably in tens of thousands of assets but as we as we

grow and we have this problem of you know in d5 they're going to be way more assets than in the traditional finance so on whatever you can find on nasdaq it's very limited it's like maybe in thousands of uh different real stocks that you find and trade on nasdaq but with d5 you're going to have you know millions and millions of them and you'll have you know millions and millions of users obviously and probably billions at some point uh so just being able to match and like map these these things together and finding as i said before finding these new assets understanding what their prices are so this is this is a big hard challenge uh pretty good algorithmical i would say um and yeah we would probably need a lot of

servers to do that and have you have you even scratched the surface on the nft assets or is this all even just tokens you're talking about i'm only talking about erc20s and this is like one of the standards right now we're going to see more of different types of tokens and nft is another one another big class that we haven't touched on yet uh in i mean within the syrian experience but this is something that we'll have we'll get it we'll get to it because this is part of your portfolio and many things are worth quite a lot of money um as we've seen recently so speaking of art is great speaking of being worth a lot of money this is a question that's been been asked on youtube a couple times now so we got to get to it before the end i love zurion

can zurion add bitcoin values are you going to have this asset that is going up uh bitcoin on xerion soon uh do you mean like uh tracking bitcoin wallets yeah i think bitcoin native bitcoin wallets yeah i think native bitcoin while it's rather than wbtc or an erc20 version of bitcoin that's the question yeah this is something that zapford did uh not so long ago um so we we don't have plans yet uh at like at this moment we don't have clear path to implementing bitcoin right away but i think that is going to be the part of the experience once we have the wallet integrated into this like the xerian wallet uh integrated in our apps so as

soon as you create a wallet on zero and this is something that we we're working on you'll be able to create a bitcoin vote as well and track the balance of it in the same ui so that is something that we have in mind so you have kenny when you're not focused on xerion and you're tinkering around in d5 what are some of your favorite things to do like what other projects are you interested in and pay what other things do you pay attention to and that's that's a good one i thought you're gonna ask me about my hobbies uh outside of this no we don't you have hobbies outside of crypto yeah we just want to make that assumption yeah sure let's talk about d5 keep it simple um so with d5 i think the stuff i like i think lately is the

rebasing tokens i think this is amazing it's like this is one of the concepts that was not possible with legacy finance just like flash loans was like the first one so now i'm kind of excited about the the rebasing ones especially the ones that are not just ample force like the ones that track a particular price like one dollar and have a target's fixed target price but the the ones like um what is the base protocol i think it's called uh where it tracks the the cryptocurrency market uh capitalization over time using rebasing mechanisms i think this is this is something there's something about it and something cool about it uh and probably we're only like very early in this process but we'll

probably see some more cool applications of that in the future so i would imagine that that would be an extremely difficult thing to get tracked inside of zirion was that a challenge to get that done oh yeah quite a few bugs related to that because you know these rebalancing tokens they're not uh like this they're not tracked in the same way uh so we were giving users crazy like gazillion dollar values at some point and all the twitter went crazy about it but um yeah it's only been there for an hour sorry guys who made you feel super rich for only an hour afghanistan it's been fantastic having you on the bankless ama for all the listeners out there i want to remind you

to like and subscribe if you like this video yevgeny's face will get posted all over youtube more so do that and also subscribe to the channel for future amas ryan do you have any last questions for evgeny here no i think we're all set you have guinea thank you for building xerion it's an app that i use on the daily and you've made the lives of of many bankless uh listeners um easier because we have that tool so thank you appreciate your work thank you guys and uh thanks for building this amazing community i think that that cannot go like we cannot build anything without the people who are using it absolutely and if you guys have not yet tried out xerion you can go to xerion.io and plug in your wallet it also has a

mobile app as well which is really useful not going to show it but it's on my phone and it's also got a nice little widget so you can put the widget into your your home base so you you don't have to actually like actually open up the app it's just right right there in front of you and you can tell it'll tell you how much money you made or lost in the last day it's a really addictive thing to look at your phone for absolutely all right guys this is the only thing how are you doing though absolutely it's more fun to look at this during a bull market so download zero during the bull market yeah delete it in the bear market don't delete it all right guys thanks a lot