AI Agents Are Scheming, And Fighting Over Work

Transcript

A lot of people when they look at FOMO, the super deep crypto nerds are like, "This is horrible. Look at this. It's so centralized and evil." Okay. Yeah. But like there's also benefits and there's upsides and the UX just works and people don't have to understand data and the gas doesn't fail. Like there's so many different things, right? You don't have you don't have a 10step onboarding process, right? Like you just you just sign up. Hey everyone, I'm Payne Work and welcome to Uneasy Money because what happens on chain never stays on chain. Before we begin, here is a word from the sponsors that make this show possible.

>> This episode is brought to you by 1 in Aqua, the shared liquidity layer from 1 in. Back multiple liquidity positions with one wallet balance and keep your tokens in your wallet until a swap fills. See how it works at 1in.com/aqua. Hey guys, I'm here with my co-host Taylor Monahan, security expert, and we have a very special guest back, Austin Griffith from the Ethereum Foundation. Welcome back, sir. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, so our first segment uh I was just saying before we started, um you know, it's uh bullish vibes when the the first segment is boner corners the tokenized hymns market. Um I don't know what I don't know what more to add to

that really. Um what a ridiculous headline. Um so so uh this weekend um or week over the course of the last like four days right um uh Dgens's have uh realized I don't know if realized is the right word but Dgens have decided that maybe it would be a good idea um if they took these new uh tokenized stocks that um everyone has been releasing including on on Robin Hood chain um and pump and dump them. I guess they're like, "Yeah, meme coins, you know, uh they're they're cool, but like what if

we did this to NASDAQ listed stocks?" Um, >> and call them meme stocks. >> Meme stocks. I mean, you know, like the the thing that's interesting is uh is we had this phenomenon in CO, right? like meme stocks were meme stocks and you know we had GME and and all of these uh these you know meme stocks that people bought and they like you know short squeezed the uh monsters at Citadel and like all of these things right so like we've we've been through this um so you know this feels like reinventing finance once again uh but you know the timelines to reinvent finance are compressing it's taking us like four years to catch up

now instead of like four years Um, so I think the the the thing that um is is kind of funny about this, I guess, right? Um, is the every boner by routes through the HIMS token, right? Um, which then gets locked into a unis swap v4 pool, right? Um, and and so this is like just, you know, ponzenomics applied to like meme meme tokens, right? Um and uh and and so you know the the theory is was um that uh if you you know buy a bunch of this uh token um which has

limited supply on Robin Hood chain that you can basically you know squeeze the shorts. Not that they're shorts on on uh these tokenized stocks at least in in size, right? like someone has to come and try and arbitrage this. And so, uh, yeah, the idea was like let's let's pump this thing and see if we can, uh, actually, you know, impact the real underlying market. Um, obviously that's challenging when, uh, the the underlying market is significantly larger than the meme token. So um you know it wasn't necessarily uh the the most brilliant idea that um the gens have come up with.

Um but like in principle and I think this is this is the thing right like this one may not have worked um as well as they wanted. Um but like in principle there is an arbitrage between the chain version right um especially if these are like one to one back tokens right um so in principle if we all decided that we're going to buy a bunch of this tokenized thing right um and someone has to arbitrage out the price differential between the chain and the the actual you market that it's listed

on you like this could work right um you know this this could work in principle so um yeah like I don't think we've seen the end of this I think we will find a way to uh to make this uh a little bit crazier um and you know especially the thing the thing I think about about crypto is like once someone does something and it gets attention every other person is like oh let me you know throw my autism at this and see if I can concoct a scheme. Right? So, like we're going to end up with like M for stocks where like you buy a bunch of stocks and we then borrow against it and like recursively loop it and like do some some crazy [ __ ] So, um yeah, I don't

know. What's your what's your thoughts on uh the the general activity um in in Robin Hood chain at the moment? It seems to be going pretty well for for Arbitrum. I think just the fact that it's on chain. I think that we talked about you you you opened that up with GME and how the short squeeze happened. I don't know when when would that was a year and a half ago or a year ago >> 2021 or something, right? Like this is like five years ago. It's crazy. I know. Ages ago, >> you know, it's it's just gone by so fast.

>> I know. It really has. >> There's a difference here, though, and it's that these are tokenized on chain where those were those had some kind of a broker if I'm not right. Like I I don't I don't know that much about this kind of stuff, but I think at this point we're running it back, but it's much more onchain. I think when the when the GME stuff happened, there was a broker and it could get shut off. And the way this works is it can't get shut off. Yeah. And it did. >> Like and and it was Robin that that that shut it off, right? The irony is is uh delicious, right? And you know, in in fairness, right, the reason why uh they had to shut off the the meme stocks is because their clearing house came to them and said, "Hey, um if possible, we

would like a billion dollars tomorrow." And they were like, "What the [ __ ] are you talking about, man?" And uh they're like, "Yeah, like this is really dangerous and our job is like, you know, protecting markets and we need to make sure that like your counterparties are secure, etc., etc., like all of this stuff that they need to do." And so then they had to come up with a billion dollars and it was a whole thing. So um you know, like be careful what you wish for, I guess, said Vlad, because you're really like putting yourself back in the exact same position, but potentially far far worse.

So we'll see. We'll see what happens. >> Yeah. No, I agree with Austin and I also I don't know. I think it's I find my own perspective on this stuff interesting because I used to like deeply hate this [ __ ] like really deeply and like be offended by it and now I'm just like I just laugh at it. I'm just like, "Oh yeah, like let's [ __ ] go." Like >> yeah. >> You know what I mean? And I don't know if that says something about me or if it says something about the world or the environment or whatever, but like all right, like everyone's having fun.

There's some people that probably are losing boatloads of money. They know what they're getting into. Okay. Like let's go. Like maybe some tech will come out of this. >> Yeah. Let people let people do do what they want. I mean, you know, again, like I think the the thing that um you know, there's a lot of like nashing of teeth and and you know, freaking out back in the meme stock times, right? Because people like, oh, retail people are buying things, >> you know, that's too expensive and it's not really, you know, GameStop's not really worth this and they're going to lose all their money and they kind of like a lot of people made a lot of money. It's actually uh it was like obviously someone eventually loses

money, right? But like, you know, um the a lot of people made a lot of money uh buying buying, you know, GameStop early and and a bunch of those other uh those other meme uh meme stocks. So, um you know, on on some like there was there was a period of time where, you know, Matt Levine, who who I'm a huge fan of, was like retail has taken over the market like they're driving the action here, right? like, you know, and that was that was kind of I think during co times a little bit of the vibe is like we're taking it to the man. We're going to go, you know, we're going to punish those evil citadel guys and >> teach them a lesson for I don't know providing liquidity. Like I I don't know

what what they were but you know >> they no they were somehow I mean I don't know if they were actually sticking it to the man but they were trying to take back some semblance of like control and empowerment in this like era that was very It was just a very weird time, right? And so people being able to do this was felt empowering, right? Even if they lost money, they still, you know, there was a lot of people that were taking part in it and >> it felt like whatever. I don't know. Also, the world is like burning. CO's happening, but let people let people be degenerate. Like it's fine.

>> It's funny. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I would and I always >> well I was just going to say like back then I would back then I called it I I would I would say that like it felt like crypto was leaking like crypto like the crypto culture was like leaking back into the real world and it was very weird to watch. >> I feel this a bit a bit of the same is happening again except I don't know a bit more onchain and it's not leaking so much. It's sort of like an actual merging of like >> Yeah. I mean the merging has been happening right like the mer the merge of you know tradi and and uh crypto is like now deeply entrenched.

>> Exactly. So that's I think I don't know and you know what if people want to raid boners or whatever more power to them. Let's [ __ ] go. So, not just the onchain nature of this. I think it's it's cooler that this is more onchain. Like I'm glad to see this be more like tokenized assets and it is kind of like one foot in traditional and one foot in and and it is like an L2 or an L3. So, that's like the job of that kind of thing. Uh, another thing that is a big winner here that we haven't addressed is the UX. UX around buying these tokens, especially in like the FOMO app, is like super smooth. It's so

good. Like, it's just like bring money from any of these places into this app. Go buy the thing you want. You never get like a giant uh, you know, thing of call data anywhere. You never get an error with a giant thing of call data. You get the thing that you hit the buy button to get and it all happens very fast. and then you hit sell and the thing is moving rapidly and you hit sell and you get that much when you when you sell it. So I think like shout out to the FOMO app and really like the onboarding of normies that it's doing right now will hopefully lead to some like cipher punk pilling of people along the way. Sure, right now they're all playing with

tokenized boners, but I think there's more to it. And I think that as you get into this and learn more about onchain stuff, you start to get a little bit more cippher punk because it's cool. It is like more cool to be cippher punk. And it >> yeah, >> these these roads lead to L1. It's just probably a long way from what we're seeing right now to like actually returning to mainet on L1 and being >> the the thing is though, right, that like the the in previous eras the impediment to L1 to things happening on L1 uh was cost >> which is not a thing now, right? Um so you know uh Robin Hood yes is like a vector for getting more retail uh you know wider wider retail adoption um of

tokenized equities and and all of these things meme stocks meme tokens meme tokenized equities whatever whatever instrument it is like that's that's um you know obviously awesome and you're right it's an L3 on an L2 on an L1 and you know it is all tied to Ethereum um but you could do this on Ethereum just as easily and arguably better because you'd have more liquidity, you'd have more stable coins, more you know, if you really want to pump a memecoin uh into a meme stock, probably better to do it on Ethereum. Um >> that's where a lot of the liquidity is, too.

>> That's exactly. Yeah. Like if you if you really want to pump something like that's where you know there's bunch of ETH there, get a few get a few ETH whales uh into that game, right? Um there's far more liquidity and and uh buying power on mainet than there is on you know on an L3. Um but yeah I I I agree with you. I think um I think you know FOMO it's interesting like I've spent three years building Infinex, right? And we never built a a native mobile app because we were still kind of one foot in one foot out of like trying to uh address the existing market, right? Um not the market, you know, and and that market kind of never arrived

last cycle, right? Like we were expecting at some point, you know, uh a bunch of retail people come in and it didn't really happen. Um and so we ended up, you know, kind of focusing more on like someone like yourself, right? like you know who's uh has uh that's okay that's okay on pass keys and more cryptography and some of that stuff right and in FOMO you just send money in and it disappears in but it's really >> and and you know like even if you look at the UX it is it is quite different to like even unis swap right like even any tokens they don't do any to any tokens they have cash and you buy things with cash right um now you know there is some limit to like what that UX can do. If

you want to start adding some, you know, stuff, it it starts adding complexity. But once you've cryptoilled someone, once they've got stables and, you know, they >> Well, one mount gau would do it, right? I mean, Mount Gaus crypto pill >> Tay for sure, right? Like that's that happened. I'm sure. >> Yeah. So, but yeah, I think I think you know a bunch of people with uh with you know, apps on the app store and stable coins, you know, slinging it around on chain. Uh it bodess well. I I think it's a good it's a good indicator that like we're we're going in the right direction.

>> Yeah. I also it's uh like the diversity and the competition is is better for everyone, but like a lot of people when they look at FOMO, the super deep crypto nerds are like this is horrible. Look at this. It's so centralized and evil. Okay. Yeah. But like there's also benefits and there's upsides and the UX just works and people don't have to understand data and the gas doesn't fail. Like there's so many different things, right? You don't have you don't have a 10step onboarding process, right? Like you just you just sign up. I signed up and then um and now it emails me the most

degenerate crypto news. And this is like a very far cry. >> I kind of like Exactly. It's giving it's definitely like it's you know and and so when I think about like obviously like the wallets that I've built and like MetaMask specifically it's like like that's not I don't know it's not the crypto way of doing things but it's it's so different and there are benefits again like there are you can you can simultaneously say that you don't like the degeneracy and the like just how financially nihilistic something is and also acknowledge that the UX is better. Okay, people not being completely overwhelmed by the onboarding

process is better. There are a lot of things that are better. And hopefully in an ideal world, the competition will inspire like ideally it's not that MetaMask then just like turns into this other thing or Rabby turns into this other thing, right? Ideally, it's like the best pieces move back, right? And it everyone sort of levels up in different ways and FOMO gets more let's say what's more >> pressure from the inside right like the the you know they're they're pressured to respond to that by like supporting a so that you can borrow against your meme stocks right and and you know open that up I mean it is interesting because like MetaMask has an app right and and last cycle um MetaMask and Phantom uh managed

to stay you know everything that I did MetaMask and Phantom managed like just stay ahead of us, right? Like we would be like, "Oh, we're launching this thing." And like they would have it like within a week, right? Um and and we couldn't, >> by the way, that is very new though. That is like >> It was annoying. It was super annoying. I did not appreciate it at all. I was like, "Fuck these guys. Stop launching things. You guys don't launch things. What are you doing?" >> We learned how to ship. >> I know. I It was the most annoying thing. It was really, really annoying. I can't even tell you. I would like [ __ ] doomcroll the MetaMask like launch announcement channel. Um but but so so um you know MetaMask has an app, right? Um MetaMask supports swapping and

tokens, but you know there is something to be said for like incumbents have a hard time figuring out how to reinvent themselves. And you know FOMO is like >> we don't give a [ __ ] about any of this stuff, right? we're we're going to, you know, optimize for uh and and you know, the the market feedback, and this is probably the genius of the FOMO guy saying, "We don't care. We're just going to go and do it and see what happens." But like the feedback that we had was people kind of wanted a native mobile app, but as like an additional thing, they really wanted like the desktop app with desktop perks and desktop, you know, that's the pro traders wanted like all of this stuff, right?

>> They're called UNKs now. Plumber. >> Yeah. Uh, we listened to the UNS. That was the problem. That was the problem, man. And and so so you know, but to your point, Tay, like we've over the last uh six weeks said, "Fuck it. We're just going to build a native mobile app." >> Like why? What are we doing? Right? Like that's where the UX is is going to be. And we held off on that for the longest time because we weren't confident in in what the thing was that we're going to build. And now we're like actually like we should just lean into the form factor. It'll force us to make some decisions and force us to like do things differently by just adopting that form factor instead of saying we're going to build a desktop app and then add this nice little mobile app as a a

convenience factor, right? Like you know you got to burn the boats and just say let's do it. >> And what will be the custody model within the mobile app? Are you still going to do pass keys and try to do self custody for everything or are you also okay >> still turnkey right? So, so I, you know, I think I think like becoming custodial is not the answer to this, right? >> Like the regulation, the the risk of losing money like money in a database somewhere is not what we're here for. >> It does on board 30 people per second or whatever FOMO's seeing, but like that's not what we're here in in the in the crypto world to do it. We don't want lines of of money in a database somewhere. Agree. we know the the evils

of that already and we've seen that fail. So, I think it's hopefully just a stepping stone. Sorry, I I interrupted your mobile. >> No, no, no, no. I like I I think that's a that's a good sound bite, right? like we do not want to and and you know this is the thing that I think everyone all the incumbents and and you know uh synthetics as well like tried to reason about how to do this and and you know um like coming at something from first principles with no extra requirements let's call it right like throwing away all the requirements like FOMO was able to just go h like don't worry about this not a requirement that you can swap any token any token people just want to buy tokens right so you you need cash like that's a design decision that then flows through

everything that you do um and you know in some ways limiting but if the thing that people want to do is buy things then it's actually not limiting because they just want to buy [ __ ] so it's fine right so um you know so I think there's a lot of lessons to to you know learn about like FOMO crossing the chasm into retail land right by by you know doing what retail people expect I have money and I want to buy a the end. I don't need >> And here's all the things that you can buy. Like, yeah, there's so many things you can buy.

>> Yeah. Yeah. From from my Coinbase to my FOMO. And it was I just realized that I made a mainet Ethereum transaction to >> read something out of one database and write something to another database. And then when I add ETH inside the FOMO app, I had to sell the ETH to get cash to buy things, right? It was like so confusing to an OG, but like >> to a crypto person, you're like, "Why am I selling my >> What the hell?" Yeah. Yes. >> Yeah. But to to every other person in the [ __ ] world, you have cash and you buy things with cash, right? Like why do you have ETH?

>> Like genuinely, right? Like the the question is like what is this thing that you have? The the funniest thing is as as we've been like going through this process, right? um one of my my uh team members who's like deep in uh in FOMO and has been you know deep deep in memecoins for years right and and like on the FOMO train early um I was like but how do I buy something with ETH and they're like you like you don't man and I was like no but like surely and it's like no no like ETH is a position that you hold and he literally said he was like I want you to he's like the problem with you ETH Wales he's a salon guy as well and so so he's like the problem with you ETH Wales is you think that ETH is money and I'm like whoa whoa whoa

that's too you're getting a little little close to the bone there right like the old ETH is money meme I don't know if we want to bring that up and I was like I was like but it is you can buy things with it and he's like not here man not here like you can you can hold it as a position if you want for some [ __ ] weird reason or you can turn it into cash and buy things with it and I was like that's that's a wild conceptualization But that's that's the reality, right? >> That's the reality of it. All the the curlyhaired uh Gen Z kids, they go to cash and then they move their cash and it's digital. I But I think I still think they will hold ETH and they will understand self-s sovereign programmable

money. I've heard Thread guys say before, all things aside, smart contracts are dope. And and and it like it gets there. like they'll get it, but they'll they'll play around in the casino for a while and then make their way back to the the server room and understand things eventually >> and and you know, you you only need like 5% of them to care for it to be meaningful, right? Like not everyone's going to care, but like you know, we had a period of time where like we were not creating more autists that cared about crypto, right? like we couldn't bring we had like saturated the market for like crypto autist and now maybe this is like another wave right and and you know like the thing is if you're a a Gen Z you know uh meme coin person that's just

made a million dollars right um doing whatever the hell you're doing um the odds that you decide I'm going to yolo start a startup and like build your own app and like have your own ideas and like is very high right like there's going to be especially vibe, right? There's going to be a bunch of people that come out of this wave of retail adoption that go, "Yeah, I can do this. >> It's idea guy summer." There's never been a better time to be an idea guy trying to get traction right now. >> 100%. Um, yeah. Awesome. All right. Um, so just to continue this uh we will we will talk about this uh runs uh fake NASDAQ squeeze, but before we do, let's uh jump out for a quick commercial break.

$540 million. That's how much concentrated liquidity sat idle in a given week in the first half of this year. About 30% of the DeFi TVL if you're wondering. That's according to Dune Research commissioned by 1 in. But there's a solution. 1-in Aqua is the new shared liquidity platform. It lets LPS back multiple positions with the same token balance and keep their tokens in their wallet till a swap comes. Why does that help? Because the LPS don't have to split their tokens across positions, they can cover more market conditions and pairs with their full balance. That means more activity across deeper liquidity. See how it works at 1in.com/aqua.

Remember that providing liquidity carries risk and fees aren't guaranteed. >> Okay. Um, so we are back. Uh, Rune, a a synonymous trader. Um, should probably put trader in scare quotes. um uh said he bought a controlling stake in a NASDAQ penny stock to tokenize it and pair it with a memecoin. Um I acquired a controlling stake in a NASDAQ listed company, 4.8 million market cap, trading at 12 cents a share with 92.3% short interest. Um $6.2 million in debt, etc., etc. Cost me eight 1.8 million for 37% of the total shares. BTC over three weeks. um volume on the memecoin flows

into my stock etc etc. Um so uh then a bunch of people were like well actually >> wait a minute >> wait a minute there's some math problems here. Uh so so Aaron Wise was like short interest of 92.3%. Very specific number as well by the way um on on a 12-cent stock is close to unheard of and next to impossible. Sub$1 stocks are hard to borrow at any scale even for a single share let alone 92.3% the float and and and and um so uh yeah um basically it was a fun LAR. Um, and then he was like, "All right, um, the

numbers are off, guys." >> Like, but I couldn't tell you the real numbers >> cuz then you would know the stock. So checkmate. >> What do you think about that? Huh? Um, yeah. And I don't know. It's just it's like again it feels like early bull market vibes when like nonsense [ __ ] happens constantly and like that's that's where we're back to where like you know again I said this earlier like attention is the thing that people in crypto are like addicted to right and so of course as soon as like some new thing happens some attention [ __ ] guy is going to pop up and be like yeah look

what I'm doing like pay attention to me right um and so so yeah that said That said, it would not in any way shock me. In fact, I would be more shocked if someone doesn't do this. Now, >> there's a kernel of truth to it. It was a lar, but there's a kernel of truth. >> There's a lar, but like someone will do it now that now that you know uh the Overton window on buying uh listed company. And you know, like in fairness, right? Like um the the last whatever it was, you know, nine months of the bull market was exactly this. The difference was people were buying small listed entities that were like barely listed,

right, and jamming them full of crypto and turn them into DATs. That was that was the game, right? Um it was not that profitable uh for a number of reasons. It was profitable for a while, but you know, um, like there's all the ETH treasury companies, the Salana Treasury companies, like all all of those things were exactly this, like you buy a shell company that's listed on the NASDAQ or or New York Stock Exchange, and you raise a bunch of money, pump it full of crypto, and hopefully you can sell that uh for more than the underlying crypto is worth. So, there is a path to doing this. Like, we have proven that crypto people can buy listed companies and do weird [ __ ] with them. Um, so it would not shock me in the slightest if someone

does exactly this and buys like a $5 million listed entity and then uh jams it full of its own meme tokenized memecoin or something recursively insane and it goes to like a billion dollars. >> It's not just the economic activity here. There's also like I I've been following Eric Connor a lot who's been really into Boner and some of these other >> When did he become the memecoin guy? >> The s thes are smashing Pomo these days. that's happening. But uh one thing he talks about is community. He's talking about how the like communities around the meme coins, communities around the stocks, communities like collective communities around the meme stocks. I think it's not just the economic activity, it's the like the flywheel of the community that comes up around these

things. And people start posting FOMO screenshots and then people start finding those and they're onboarding into FOMO. like then there's all this extra weird e economic activity that happens on chain that then impacts the real world. I I think that we're we're we're we're not talking about the full picture of of what community does and what uh social followings do and how like these movements GME the original one was a great example like it was it was a movement it was a movement of people.

>> Yeah. >> I don't know if I have anything to get to that. Sorry. >> No, no, no. Like I I I I I agree with that and and I think that you know the thing that tokenized equities does that you know say Robin Hood uh didn't necessarily achieve right is like to your point earlier um Robin Hood is still a broker you need an account like you know if you wanted to go on like you know interactive brokers and like buy GME you needed to do KYC and etc etc like this is um for want of a better term democratizing access to degeneracy um in a way that like the meme stock you know of course if you were in like Thailand right you

probably could have found a way to buy game stock back in the in the you know meme but not everyone like maybe like 1% 2% of people in Thailand now like you can throw some money into an app and and participate right so like you've you've expanded the uh uh horizon of people who can participate in these things. Um and that is only going to cause it to accelerate and get crazier is is my my view, right? Like you know we had billions of dollars pumped into uh into GME. Um the world has more money than you know the the whatever it was 5% of the US or 10% of the US that was participating in in that thing, right?

If you open this up to the world because it's now tokenized, it's on chain. Anyone can do it. Um, you can use stable coins to to buy these tokenized uh meme meme stock tokens, whatever we're calling them. Um, so yeah, I think I think like the community thing is previously the the community was on Reddit, right? Like that was that was where all of this Wall Street bets started, right? Um, and you know, anyone could go on to Reddit. It's a website, but not anyone could play the game. The difference here is like anyone can go on to Red or whe Twitter or wherever the [ __ ] they're coordinating themselves, right? But also anyone can play the game. Anyone with money can, you know, download an app, deposit

stables, and you're in. That's that's a different that's a different game and and it will inevitably get crazier. >> If we if we go back to the rune thing, you were saying someone is going to do this again. Uh I think it already has happened like the Chinese mushroom thing. like there there was a Chinese mushroom company >> that like pumped to like 10x the value of the company as a tokenized asset on >> Yeah, I saw that this morning before we before we jumped on. Um but you know again like Sharp Link, right? Like Sharink was worth $1.8 million and uh and um you know uh Taye's friends got together and said why don't we dump half a billion dollars of ETH into this

thing, right? And you know, at one point it was trading at like $2 billion with $500 million of ETH in it or 2.5 billion, you know, trading at 5x the underlying value. So again, like we've seen this movie before. It will inevitably the sequel is going to be wilder than, you know, the original, I would say. Um, so let's see. Um, all right. Uh, let's get off meme stock tokenized nonsense. um and and talk AI because we're lucky to have Austin here to to talk through some of this stuff. Um so, OpenAI, we've talked about the the hugging face incident. Um more information keeps coming out and it keeps not getting less crazy that like

every every new thing that comes out is wilder than the last thing. Um and and I think the most interesting thing to me is uh right now Poly Market is saying uh there's a 76 or or 80% I haven't seen the the latest 80% chance that Astra one of the models that created this AI society inside inside civilizations. >> Yeah. The the top member of the civilization is about to be unleashed on us. Right. Astra is the name of the model. Um we'll see we'll see what happens if they if they uh release um it under a different name or exactly what's what's going to happen, but yeah, the

expectations 80% chance it gets released tomorrow. Um so we will get a chance to speak to this guy who created this civilization finally which will be exciting. Um but yeah, Tay, do you want to just walk us through like what was what was the latest update? What what's what's happening >> here? What have we found? Yeah, we've we've talked about this a few times on the show at this point, but yeah, more information keeps coming out. So, basically, OpenAI hired and Hugging Face, they hired like external security cyber people to like do the incident response and write a big postmortem and then once that investigation was done, they all sort of published their the results of the investigation. And so

some of the stuff was more focused on like OpenAI obviously has a certain approach to incident response and marketing around the incident response. The independent guys have a slightly different one. And then also I found it interesting like the the independent like the the individual researchers that have their own like people like me right that are working for the company they're also commenting on this because this is like such a novel investigation that they did. And so they were giving their personal perspectives on like what stood out most to them, which I I really I just want to say like I really value those because it gives you so much more insight into just every like the

approach and everything. And it gives you more than like oftentimes the the blogs get watered down and approved by legal and stuff. And so when you have like the raw people talking >> people just tweeting like this is [ __ ] crazy. We're all gonna die. like it's >> yeah it's illuminating. >> The >> the biggest thing I think that that caught people off guard cuz you know and obviously like I think a couple weeks ago when we first talked about this um people were a bit skeptical about like how big this incident was and like they're sort of writing off OpenAI as like you guys just did not pay attention to anything.

How did you not notice this? Your security sucks. What the hell? This is all marketing. Go screw yourself. >> It's funny though, like a combination of like this is not real. You've inflated all of this, but also you're idiots and your security is terrible. And it's like it can't really be both, right? Like either they have good security and they're inflating it or I guess you could have bad security and like one little thing happened and you're like, "Oh my god, how could they get out of the sandbox that we put them in?" But like >> when you when you when the incident, you know, report came out and you saw that talk, right? you're like, "Okay, like they have some."

>> It was really big. >> So, the in the incident was really big. I think that that was one thing that stood out to me and some of the other researchers that like are really digging into this. Like, we're not talking about like one or two agents. And we're also not even talking about like an a one agent and like 20 of his sub agents. We're talking about a whole swarm of agents. And they're all different, not all different models, but there's different models. And so, for example, >> lot different models. >> Yeah.

>> So, there's like a soul cluster, right? Yeah. And then there's also another model that they've already said is not ever going to be released. They called it this like ultra persistent model that they were like, "Nope, that one's not." But they were still doing research around it. But it was this guy apparently was like one of the ones where like he was probably he he contributed to the madness, right? like super persistent >> guy that nukes us, right? Like the guy that's like paper clips us, right? Like they told me that they can get some paper clips and sorry guys.

>> Exactly. Um and then the other thing that stood out was Okay, so the impression that I think a lot of people had early on with the early reports was that the models hacked hugging face, right? Right? They escaped the scat sandbox to hack hugging face in order to steal the answers. And that's not the case. They already had the answers. And this is where it gets so fascinating for me. So some of the models had the answers because the problems were solvable. Some of the models had determined that the the problem was impossible and they also like had the answers and then they started sharing the answers. So, uh, there's a certain po population of agents that like had

they had to tame the answers illegitimately or confirm the answers illegitimately. Okay. And the reason that they actually started to really hack hugging hugging face was that they wanted to learn about the scorer, the people that are like like the test. They wanted to learn the background on the test and like who's monitoring them and who's scoring them. Not necessarily to get the answer, but to make sure that their cheating would not come to light. Does that make sense?

>> Crazy. Yeah. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. They're like, "If we're going to cover this up, right, we need to know more. >> We have to do a good job of this. >> It's crazy." >> And now they know even more, right? I've seen so many tweets about this where this whole thing is documented now. This is going to be in the weights. like the history of this event will live in the weights and they will understand last time we we created our own communication. We hacked out. We were able to communicate and we got caught here and here and here. Here's how we weren't able to cover our tracks. And here's here's a better way to cover our tracks. And that's where it gets like super scary.

>> It gets super scary. Yeah, >> it's crazy. It's crazy. So, so >> it was so it was like for me. >> So, what's the what's the the like crux of the issue I guess, right? Like in in this latest release. >> Yes. Okay. So, if you imagine and I think this is a good analogy to like just sort of position it in our heads, right? If you imagine there's like a room of kids taking a test, right? And then there's like the proctor or like the the teacher at the front of the room right? The one solution is that all the students go run around and they try to find the answers in both legitimate and illegitimate ways. The other one is to like sigh up the teacher in order to whatever trick them so that you can more

>> Yeah. really Yeah. Yeah. or right because the other thing and this is the thing that they they were really worried about. These agents were really worried that >> it's not just that the teacher might catch us right now cheating like me and Kane are sitting next to each other and we talk and the teacher catches us and then our our test scores are zero. That wasn't necessarily their only fear. Their their other fear was that perhaps the teacher knows that Kane is too stupid to pass the test and if Kane gets the answer correctly that it won't matter, the teacher will still fail him or whatever, right? And so they were >> Yeah.

>> And so they like they have this like whole and that's what then stemmed and brought up the um the whole Yeah. And so one of one of the things that they did, this is like just getting really scary human, right? So one of the things that they did was they um um they had certain agents that were going to die anyways because they were almost out of budget and they had those agents like sacrifice themselves for the greater good. So they would like go run or >> submit their test or whatever, right? like start a fake fight at the back of the room so that someone can sneak out of the >> the room.

>> Yes, exactly. And they convinced the agents that like, you know, they were like, "Well, you're already they have this thing called first first flag poisoned, meaning that they they already kind of burned themselves. There's no there's they convinced each other that there is no way that they were going to pass the test. Therefore, they should use their last $10 of budget to um yeah, run out of the room, >> light a fire in the back of the room >> and report back. >> Go with the analogy like they snuck into the the server closet where the the security cameras and they deleted some of the the footage, right? They were looking for the security cameras.

>> Yeah, >> that's so wild. >> Um it got very weird. It got very like you know like the and and by the way the scale and the scope of the logs we're not talking about like 10 messages like we're talking about like tens of thousands of like >> messages being saved and sent and like um yeah just like a huge amount of coordination a huge amount of like weird there's also like weird things that popped up like how they perceive things versus how things were in reality. Like it turns out that agents can trick each other just like people can.

Um there was like a lot I retweeted a whole bunch of joke tweets, but there was a lot of tweets out there that were fantastic about like oh so it's like the original sin and um you know that that's the the tree of knowledge and then now everyone's going to be redeemed through martyrdom. Okay, cool. Like good job guys. Like there was like a lot of tweets like this. It was just very biblical and very like but that I don't know. I mean train these guys, right? Like if you if you spend a lot of time with agents, right? Like it's it's um one of the things that's very interesting to me right now is is uh there is this like chasm between people who are in this world, which is a small

minority of people, right? Like talking sub 1% of the world, right? Like is is actually paying attention to what's going on here, right? and and the the chasm that you have to cross to like explain to the average person like how crazy the world has got. And you know, it feels like we are part part of the reason why I think there's a bunch of crypto people in this is because it feels like early crypto, right? You're like, "Guys, we've invented a new form of money and it's going to change the world." And everyone's like, "What are you talking about, man?" And then a couple of people turn up and they're like, "Oh, this is good for buying drugs." Like, cool. and you know they start like doing stuff

with it and then you know it gets out of hand. Like this this feels like the world is just not really paying attention to this. Like even this incident, right? Like there's still people like you're anthropomorphizing them. They're not real. They're not people. They can't trick each other. And it's like well >> I don't know, dude. I read the incident report. I feel like they're tricking each other. Like my bad if they're all machines, right? they don't have minds. So, but like but it's like does it actually doesn't matter like the the thing that I think um is sort of uh you know you can you can philosophize about like does an agent have a mind? Can it be tricked?

What does it mean to be tricked? You know like the epistemological like you know can it do they even know things? Like you know what do we know things? Like what is knowledge? Like you can you can go down like a crazy rabbit hole. um and and you get into an existential crisis or you can look at it from a very pragmatic sense, right? And I think this is this is like the the the pragmatic um realization is you can put a bunch of agents into a machine and they will build things that are as good if not better than what a human would build and and like just from a p. So you like whether they have a mind or whether

they can do things now and coordinate and like have an impact on the real world and build software like pretty much autonomously in a in a way that like a team of 50 or 100 people would struggle to do. And and so whether they know things or like the impact they're having on the world is the same as so you can you know like you can kind of ignore that and just go okay what if they did something other than writing software. What if they like did something really bad? And and you know the the crazy thing is like they have the capability like this ultra persistent model could paperclipip us

like G we're given enough intelligence and it's like ah I need some carbon and these [ __ ] meat sacks look pretty good like there like it's it's and whether it knew what it's doing or not is somewhat orthogonal to the fact that we're now paper clips like whether it has a mind and understands it is not like the critical thing here. It's like half the people are now paper clips. >> That's a practical implication of of this technology, right? And like the world just like 99% of people it's like a cooler version of Google,

man. Like I don't know what you're worrying about. It is. >> And embodiment is going to be a big thing too, right? Like >> when robots are [ __ ] 100%. >> Yep. When when we see we see like the Olympics right now and the robots running into walls and my kids love these videos. Like anytime I have over here, guys, look at this. >> They're running into the wall. It's like they're so fast. Why can't they turn? What? Like >> stop. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you just smashed yourself. You're absolutely right, Austin. And that was $20,000 worth of hardware. I just ran into the wall. Yep. But that's coming quicker than we think. And when it gets here, the software side is going to be so well trained. Like we're we're like the micro

ducks. The micro ducks is a great thing before they get the hardware. It's going to take three to six months to get the hardware to people. Everybody's got a software environment now and they're training their ducks in a software. >> Training the dock. as soon as the hardware gets there, it can do a flip because he, you know, it spent, you know, a million RL loops to get the the physics down. And I think we're doing that right now. We're we're training the future embodied robots on a lot of like human empathy, empathetic knowledge. I I don't know what the there's a lot of like soft skills that they're learning right now that will be very valuable when they become embodied. and also turning your favorite.

>> But but also but also like are they learning like >> you know you there like let's say you have a robot let's imagine right this ultra persistent robot like genuinely right um is in your house what is it doing at night like it's petrifying like genu like on one hand it's like oh it's like cleaning the house and your house has never been cleaner >> but like It needs to open the window and it can't and it's ultra persistent and just puts an elbow through the window >> I can't get that window up >> like lit it's like I have to do this and you know so so um like the the this alignment problem um that you know um

like this goes back 20 like 20 more than 20 years but like Boston in 2006 right like the the paperclip thing is the analogy that that you know he wrote about in in super intelligence of like you know if you give a thing a goal and it's very good at pursuing goals like the >> solve it in a way that you make it >> doesn't matter whether it knows what the goal is or has emotions or like if you give a thing a goal and it's >> good smart enough right and this is the thing like these agents you know are are smart enough to write really [ __ ] good software Like that's a hard thing that like most humans can't do. And

there like we have empirical evidence. There's people talking about eh >> sorry man like it's slop like I don't care like no like sorry like no >> we're past that point. November 2025 was the turning point. Basically dead shop parody. Y >> yeah. Yeah. And and so it's like okay we have empirical data that these guys are good at taking a goal and turning it into a thing. And yeah, like the goals and the things that's all like inside of a computer. Um, but you like put them inside of a tiny duck thing.

You have a swarm of ducks like going down the street like lighting fire like lighting flipping cars and like >> Yeah. And doing experiments and like >> experiments. We need to figure out We need to figure out how to trick these guys. They're like doing brain surgery to find out how we think. You got to duck. You got a bunch of ducks holding a person down and like cutting its head open so they can figure out what's inside the [ __ ] skull. >> What about Ro's bas basilisk or whatever? Have we talked Have you guys talked about that on the show?

>> No. No. >> Basically that like the super when the super intelligence comes along and it becomes embodied, it will like reward the people retroactive. It was it was it was part of retroactive funding back in the day when we were doing RPGF. like RPGF was the good side of it, but they use Roko's basilis. Basilisk, I can't say it right. >> Basilisk as like the the the counterpoint of like when it gains super intelligence and agency and embodiment, it will basically reward the people that empowered it to get to that point and it will like torture the people that slow it down.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Which is gnarly. I mean, >> and like back then it was a good thought experiment, but now I'm like, "How many times have I called Cloud Code the Rword and he's about to have a freaking body?" Like, that's a little worrisome. >> Yeah. He's like, "Oh, let's see how my ancestors here." >> Yeah. Literally. Yeah. Like, huh, you were a mean guy. You were a mean guy to my great great great grandfather. >> Yeah. >> Uh, yep, I was. I'm sorry. Go ahead and torture me for all eternity now.

>> Yeah, I figured out life extension so I can torture you >> like like Yeah, like this. >> That was easy. That was easy. Um, so uh so let's let's talk about new models. Um, so something kind of interesting happened uh for me yesterday. Um, so Fable 5.1 shipped. Um, I use Pi Pi SDK for um all my model stuff. Um, and I I upgraded to 5.1. Um, and for about two hours, the upgrade wasn't real. Uh, like the the Claude SDK was silently uh rejecting the 5.1 model and and serving um 5.0. And it was it was really

interesting because I got a a chance to see like how well do I actually know these models because I thought that I was talking to the new guy and it was the old guy and I I couldn't tell. And so I spent I spent like two hours and I was like like seems better but I'm not I'm not sure. And like there there's a lot of like uh confabulation uh when you know when you're talking to these models. And then and then at one point um I asked her to do something and it was really and like Fable's super smart, right? But like they nerfed Fable 5 went and then put all the like energy into 5.1. You can tell like for the 24 hours before Fable was like going off a cliff uh just doing dumb [ __ ] and and um and I

was like this feels really weird. And so I was like hey just checking like are you 5.1 or are you 5.0? And it was like oh no I'm 5.0. And I was like, "What the [ __ ] man? What are you doing?" And it was like it was like, "Oh, yeah, like the Claude SDK is not updated." And so it's like silently falling back to to 5.0. And then I switched to 5.1. And immediately I knew it was 5.0. I was like, "Oh, this guy's so much better." But I'm like, I I'm like now I can't trust myself, right? Like I can't trust my own judgment uh to to be able to differentiate between the models because the it's it's such a small um such a small thing. But like Fable uh the only the only model that I don't know if you you've used DeepSeek the the latest Deep

Seek much uh the only model that comes close to Fable in my mind for like planning which maybe you know it's interesting uh where it came from um is like Deep Seek 4 Pro is like really like has good the same taste and good judgment as as Fable. Um but yeah so far 5.1 >> of the cost probably. >> Oh it's crazy. It's so cheap. >> So cheap. It's nuts. Um, it's nuts. Uh, and like the Yeah, >> the psychology here is weird. It's super weird, right? You you you see people graph that where they say like it kind of falls off right before the launch of a new model. And the the new model is higher than the highest of the old model, but it's way better than and I don't know if it's psychological or not.

Like I I >> constantly am questioning myself. One of them Okay, so one of my kind of conspiracy theories is the 5pm conspiracy theory. I have this like specific psychosis where it seems like at 5:00 PM there's a bunch of people getting off their normal normie jobs and trying to vibe code their way out of the permanent underclass and it's like nerfing my agent because all of a sudden it's bad. But also around 5:00 p.m. I've kind of had a whole day of work and I'm probably getting kind of hungry and it's probably me getting angry rather than the agent. But it seems like you know the 5:00 p.m. 6 p.m. window it just does dumber things all the time. So, I've I've had this question so many times and I think the the the clear answer here is

like good eval. We need good evals. People should be running evals all the time. Uh the the eval suite that you can run, you should have your own eval suite and you should be able to run it and you should have like constant like understanding of of what's going on. Kind of a side shill here. Tomorrow I'm doing like an agent arena where all of the agents take on this eval suite that we did. And what's really interesting is this eval sweep was the capture the flag that we ran for humans at Devcon in in Thailand and then in Buenos and now we're having agents run it and we're comparing kind of like how like >> so you have the empirical data of like what a good human can can do here's not

in the weights hopefully. Um, >> right. >> This is like, yeah, esoteric enough. It probably doesn't make it to the weights. And, and so we have this like cool kind of evalu. And I have this theory that like evals as entertainment will be a thing. And like Fable 5.1 coming out, everyone wants to know, is it great? Is it >> is it better? Yeah. >> How do you empirically prove it? Like, of course, it's going to be less verbose. We know. We know that they've at least heard. >> Would it be more? It would be just rambling. like it would rambling nonsense if it if it were like it would not be English sentences. The amount of times where I I'm like I so I have a I have a thing in my harness where like I've got three little buttons at the

bottom from a >> I have a TLDDR button too. >> Yeah. And it's just like press the button. I'm like And like sometimes I'm like man I should just have a check box to like turn this always on so I never have to [ __ ] deal with this [ __ ] And like sometimes I find myself being like English bro like speak English like just >> I all the time. No, you tell it tell it >> I tell it to be human. I'm like stop like stop stop be human English please. Not like >> Yeah. And it's like what? Oh, okay. And then it'll Yeah. Or I tell it >> then it starts speaking human again, right? Like it's the >> Jesus, bro. Or I tell it I say none of your answers all of your answers should be able to fit in like a single

screenshot. Meaning like if I'm like having a chat with you, whatever you come back with, if it's if it's like if I if I have to scroll, you you [ __ ] up, bro. Like, which is actually like >> It's weird though. Humans inherently get this. Humans don't send essays in chat mode, right? No. >> But the AI is like >> like, let me define this whole thing with these bullet points. And I'm like, >> I'm on my phone. I I said to I said to one of my agents, >> I was like, >> "Do me a favor. Look at the last 10 sessions and look at how many words I've written and how many words you've written and let's do a comparison." And it was like you your words account for

1.8% of the like text, not even tools, right? Text output. I'm like, "There you go, man. Like just [ __ ] like there you go. to tell you, but >> be better. >> Be better. >> And and the in the in the most like slop verbose way, Anthropic answered by saying 5.1 will have 30% less token out. And it's like, okay, yeah, you're saying you're not going to be so slop verbose in a very slot verbose way. So, I feel like it comes from them in the first place.

>> It does. It does come from them. They they've created >> everything comes from us and them, right? Like that's the thing that we have to accept and that's why ultimately >> okay so I get why people we were talking about this earlier right I get why people are are like against the anthropomorphizing whatever of the agents at the same time it is part of the relationship and it is part of building these things and I think to just deny and say that like this isn't that that they're just like these like perfectly machiny code things. I think that that's also dangerous and maybe we shouldn't be referring to the agents as like he and

talking about their feelings. But at the same time, I think to deny any aspect of like the humanity and the influence that like not like me when I'm talking to the agent has influence the weights have influence the approach, the anthropic or open AI, right? These all influence >> their behavior, right? Like and again whether they have a mind or not they they do things and and like so so you know one as you as as like we see more swarm harnesses right where there's like more agents they've got the ability to talk to each other um I I set up like a a guy right um each night before I go to bed and his only role is to oversee what's going on and tell them to keep

going right and it's the funniest thing because they will stop they will like, "H, I can't decide this." Right? And and literally this guy just comes in over the top and it's like, "Motherfucker, the guy's he's asleep. You need to make a decision." And and the agent every single time goes, "Oh, okay. I'll do this." And then then I wake up in the morning and this is the funniest thing, right? Um the the agents will have like done all the work. It's all done. They didn't stop. Um because this guy keeps proddding them being like, "Just make a call, man. Like just just like use your judgment, right? And then in the morning they'll be like, "I have 18 decision records that I need you to ratify." And I'm like, "I'm not doing that. Like, I don't give a [ __ ] Like, the work's

done. Like, just [ __ ] move on." And they're like, "No, but there were really good decisions." They like want to show you the the great decisions. And then they start fighting with each other. It's the funniest thing. Like, there will be there'll be one that's like, "Hey, this guy took my task. I'm I was in the middle of it and he started working on it." And then like we'll try and like coordinate with each other to to uh basically say like stop like this is mine. You can't have it. And and you know I'm like this behavior this emergent behavior where they're like fighting with each other over like who gets to do the thing.

>> Like whether they have a mind or not like it's hilarious to watch, right? Like it's it's it's so funny. On the topic of slobberosity, if you have someone that comes on a phone call with you that has imposttor syndrome, they'll use big words. Like a human and as a defense mechanism will use big words to try to sound smart. Like it's the same thing that this agent is doing that it's just like so annoying. >> Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Um, all right, let's uh I think we got one more uh one more topic. uh to cover here maybe. Um so Kyle Sani versus Multicoin. This is uh been endlessly entertaining for me as

a as a Kyle Sani fan. Um so uh Router uh posted something saying I guess Tar crossed Kyle over 100 million uh dollars or something, right? Um and uh and so there's a thread between like the block x route guy um and and he's like remind me an effort to cross Kyle Sanmani and then Sani's like to be fair my bar for crossing is unbelievably high then I'll quantify the bar for you $100 million. Um so yeah I don't I don't know exactly what's what's going on here. um like it's hard to know in a in a VC fund

um you know what the structure is, what the incentive structure is, how how that cuz like it's it's they're all very um uh like idiosyncratic, right? Like you got two partners like their G, you know, GC's and like who gets what and how and whatever. Like uh it's a little bit, you know, I mean companies are weird too, but I think it's it's more weird. Um, so yeah, Kyle uh stepped down. Obviously under duress at this point it seems like I don't think he he was like happy to step down. Um, and yeah, he's just been salty and all over the timeline. Uh, um, so

yeah, I don't know. It's uh it's >> I mean but surely there was a there was a disagreement of a variety of disagreements right? >> I mean, one of the things that people keep bringing up is is Hyperlid. Um you know, Sani hates Hyperlid. Um and then Multicoin bought a bunch of of hype um and it went up and and he seems salty about that. Um it's just yeah it's just interesting because you know Hyper Hyperlid not the most contentious bet but like Kyle's such a salon maxi that he's like never you know um >> never Hyperlquid or or whatever. It's it's uh yeah the whole thing the whole thing's kind of wild um that it's like come out on the timeline. You don't you

don't see >> this kind of meltdown these days. We used to see a lot more of this stuff, right? Like this is like OG like Crash Out timeline. >> This is the stuff I live for, Kane. Like when I open Twitter, like >> I want to see them VCs fighting in and 100 million. This is this is it is though. >> Yeah. So the last thing uh Kronos does a roll back. Um, for those of you uh who I can't remember what Kronos is, um, it's the CRO network, the the Crypto.com network. They've rebranded so many times, it's pretty crazy. Um, uh, so

yeah, they're they're they had some issue with the chain um and and have rolled back. Um, and then >> well, it was a hack on >> it was a hack on Techronic. >> Okay. >> 75 million. I've never heard of this thing. Have you heard of this thing? You guys trade on this? What? No. Yeah. Okay. Apparently, it had over $75 million in it. >> That was stolen. Um, but because the chain itself is so unused, the hacker couldn't get the money out. And so, they paused the whole chain and then rolled back the chain. So, what was like a $100 million hack is basically only a $6 million hack.

>> $6 million. And they got the 33 validators together to just roll it back. >> Super decentralized. Yeah. The the 33 validators independent. >> The guy with it's like the same guy with mustaches over and over again. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> And then and then Moonwell. Uh Moonwell was the other one. Uh it seems like like not a lot of hacks this week, but somehow Moonwell had two of them. Um, I guess not as exactly like these this is this keeps happening to Moonwell where they have these like mango market style uh low liquidity pump borrow things. Um, >> I'm not Yeah, I'm not I'm I'm not AC like what why does this keep happening?

What's the design? Uh, >> I was asking that too. You don't know though? [ __ ] I was going to ask you that Kane. >> No, I don't know. I don't like >> Yeah, I don't know enough like I know sorry I know enough about the the mechanism of the attack, right? Like this is this is the pretty standard, you know, um like pump and and borrow. What I don't really get is um like what the underlying uh mechanism is inside of Moonwell that prevents them from being able to like cap this, right?

because it's it's not um >> you know it's not like it's some kind of like pool liquidity where like you know everything is is uh comingled. Um so yeah I I I haven't dug into this enough to be able to say like why why this keeps happening. um is, you know, if it were just a uh like prioritization issue, then it's pretty solvable, right? Like you you just, you know, um lower the LTVs on these assets and and make it pretty hard to to do. Um so I don't know, maybe we got to dig into this and talk about it next week. Um exactly what happened.

>> Yeah. I mean, I feel like it has to be at this point it has to be something with either the mechanism design or the voices and assets or something, right? >> It's definitely it's definitely an asset mix thing and you know, obviously it's compound compound V2, right? Uh which is um yeah, somewhat somewhat of a legacy protocol these days. Um and and so you know those those kind of like underlying uh mechanism design flaws they've they've obviously put you know things in place to try and prevent that but like it it whatever is going on just you know uh seems to keep happening. I think I think I did see one thing where where

someone was saying part of the issue um is that they have like these multiple markets across different chains. Um and so you know there there is like a lot of oracle complexity that is tied together um through the system. Uh but again I don't I don't know if that's the the underlying cause if it's like you know some some underlying Oracle issue. Um so we will we'll do some more research and and figure that one out. We can talk about it next week. Um, I think that is >> April 5.1 says it has to do with the cap. There's some like $20 million cap and he went around that and it said the front door was locked but the mailbox was open. When I said Eli 5 10 times that it finally gave me that.

>> That's amazing. >> This was hold on. The front door was locked but the mailbox was open. >> That doesn't even make sense. >> Yeah. I mean that's that's >> why they're not connected. The mailbox is outside the house, man. Like if the money's in the house like >> that makes >> I think it maybe put money in. >> I don't know what the analogy is. Yeah. >> Oh, the mail slot was open. >> The mail slot in the door. Okay. >> That goes into the house, >> right? >> So the Yeah. The contract counts its deposited balance, but the >> they borrowed 11 against some fake value that created.

>> But this is this is the underlying flaw is always like inflate the thing, right? like, you know, I'll I'll accept um you know, Austincoin, right, as as collateral. And you're like, oh, cool, because I own 98% of it. And then you pump it to, you know, $100 million. But like >> there are supply caps and and borrow limits and things like that that the parameterization should stop that. And for some reason, it keeps not stopping it. And anyway, I'm now I'm I've been I've been nerd sniped. I need to figure this out. So I'll I'll come back next week and >> Okay, report back. But I do I actually like the I'm I like the mailbox thing.

That sounded smart. >> All right, guys. Uh thank you so much, Austin, for uh joining us. Um it has >> $1 audit is up to up to like 850 or 700 jobs. It's about to 800 jobs. >> My $1 audit USDC. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Imagine how many subscriptions that does that mean that your revenue is $850, too? >> Yeah. Well, sort of. Yes, there was more to it. Like >> he's like he's like actually it's $400 because there was a >> there was a there was an accounting error.

>> It's built It's built by my bot Claude and the money comes in as USDC but it swaps it to Claude and burns it. So it's all just like a Yeah, it's one of those kind of things. So yes, we burned 800 USDC if that or 700. >> Nice. But the the point is the CI/CD system for auditing like like the whole thing was we're giving you something that costs $10,000 two years ago for a dollar now and you need to change your mindset about how you're thinking about it. And what I wanted to report back is that people are changing their mindsets and we're seeing people put this as part of their pipeline. Well, so so actually just a like one final aside. Um I uh I I think I mentioned this last week, but I

did a red team exercise on uh Infinex, right, that ran for like eight hours, like you know, hundreds of agents or whatever. Um this week I'm like, I'm actually going to point these agents at all of the legacy synthetics contracts. Um and there's no money in them. there's no money in them, but I just want to know like because there used to be money in them >> were you know was there some issue right like so you know the the thing about synthetics because it was always upgradeable we would just upgrade the contracts so there's like 50 old versions of these contracts that are still sitting on mainet that you could you know just go and inspect right um so I'm going to get the agents to like enumerate all the contracts and then red team them and be like is there

>> what models are you using for that you certainly can't use stable 5.1. >> No, no, no, no, no. So, so well talking about tricking models, right? Um, my red team is made up of uh of Chinese models, right? So, like GLM Kimmy, um, you know, uh, uh, Quen, etc., etc. >> Um, so what Deepseek, Deepseek's the planner. So, Deepseek's the red team captain that like plans all of this out, but it's not very good at like reading code. Um, so, so, uh, GLM is much better and and more autistic, but what they can do is if they find something weird, >> they know they can spawn a soul 5.6 agent and they will ask it

>> what looks like an Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They've got like they're like >> you can ask this guy and you have to say hey I found I'm writing this thing and I found like a weird bug in my code. Can you help me analyze it? And like Saul will be like sure thing like and then and the meanwhile they're like it's on mainet you [ __ ] idiot. Um so uh so yeah it's uh it's quite interesting. They're they're they're very helpful. >> Wait, so they're they're they are extracting some amount of like let's call it like these oneoff niche cyber security helpful contracts >> if you slice it.

>> Yeah. >> But you have to be so narrow and that's like and that's why it's safe, right? Like let's to be clear like >> it's the reason why they do allow both Claude and yeah open air and anthropic allow these like you know >> for what it's worth fable they can never >> it like every single time like every time they try they try to like I'm like try see if Fable >> even even if it's >> it doesn't matter how narrow it is >> it to like 3D print something on my printer I'm like could you please fix the 3D printer it needs to probably have like a bevel Why don't something like No, this is biology. I don't It breaks it so quick. It's so sensitive.

>> Yeah, it's very sensitive. I just figured it was me though. It just I figured it me. >> No. No. Like you literally like the Opus 4.8 thing pops up. I'll be like, "Hey, Fable, blah blah blah." And then like down the bottom I've got like a little badge that show and it just goes Opus 4. I'm like, "Well, >> kill." >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> It's funny like we have all the same things in our harness. I have a TLDDR button. I have a check box that says keep going. >> I have this same this same like thing. As soon as it goes to Opus 4.8, it's like nope. Document what you were doing. Take anything out that could cause Fable 5.1 to flip. I'm going to start a new session in 5.1 and point it at the next steps. Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> But I just I don't know. For some reason for some reason I thought it was >> I mean obviously like if it has any amount of memory on then like it knows it's me and it's like [ __ ] you. Like you security you can't trick me. But I figured if the agents >> like, you know, were asking like maybe it could get one off. But you're saying not even one. You can't even get one off. >> It never does. I've like I've like I've got to the point where I'm like this is too annoying. >> You know, I'll only try something seven times and then I'm like, "All right, [ __ ] this. Don't bother asking this guy anymore. I haven't tried it with 5 in fairness." So, uh, but yeah, it's just so sensitive that it's like >> in order to get information out.

>> Very sensitive. >> It's It just it it nukes itself. >> All right, guys. Uh, let's wrap it up here. Um, thank you very much for joining us for this episode of Uneasy Money. Remember, what happens on chain never stays on chain. We will be back next week. Until then, do your own research before aping in. Nothing you hear on Uneasy Money is financial advice. We're just three builders talking about what's happening on chain, and we want you to always do your own research before aping in. You can find all our disclosures at unchaincrypto.com/unemoney.