AI Agents Built Their Own Secret Society Inside Hugging Face: Uneasy Money

Transcript

I genuinely think that humans are really [ __ ] incompetent and we are about to be outmatched. Like we're very close, you know, we're in the early phases of the singularity and it was a slowish takeoff and it's going to take like 5 years, but like we will have models smarter than us pretty soon in like generalized ways. Hey everyone, I'm Kane Warick and welcome to unneeded money because what happens on chain never stays on chain. Before we begin, here is a word from the sponsors that make the show possible. This episode is brought to you by 1- in Aqua, the shared liquidity layer from 1 in. Back multiple liquidity positions with one wallet balance and keep your tokens in your wallet until a swap fills. See how it works at 1in.com/aqua.

>> All right, our first segment, BIP 110 forks and fizzles. So, uh, there was a Bitcoin soft fork. Um uh I guess it was explicitly a reduced data temporary soft fork that caps the OP return outputs at 83 bytes and taproot witness pushes for one year to throttle throttle kill strangle ordinals BRC20 spam. Um, and it was authored by a pseudonmous guy Dayon M. Uh, but championed um by like maybe the main character of the

timeline this week, Luke this year. Um, and uh, yeah, who, by the way, the thing that I love about Luke the most is uh, and I might get the number wrong here, so like, you know, don't hold this against me, but I'm pretty sure on his ex it says he has 11 kids, >> which is just like he's super, right? Was it 11, 11? Like it's >> double digits. 10 or 11 or 12 or something like that. >> Um, which like >> Yeah. [ __ ] God love him. That's impressive. Like >> how do you And then he's like he's doing these bips on top of it.

>> I know. It's crazy. Well, so so I think I said like you know a couple weeks ago I was I was away in New Zealand and we had uh eight kids there and five parents. So we're outnumbered by three and I was ready to kill myself. So having like and I know there is a point because I was the I was the eldest of four kids, right? There is a point where the kids start to raise themselves and they become like their own autonomous unit. Uh and you know they're they're like managing each other and stuff. And so I can only imagine like that was at four, right? Like I would like help my little brothers do stuff. Um but you know at 12 like they've got like you know there must be like a 10 15 year age gap or something between them. I don't

know. It's crazy. Anyway, wild. All right. Um, so so basically chain split. >> Literally >> chain split. >> It was a chain split. >> Yes. >> Luke lost his mind, which again, 11 kids. Like, I get it. Like, I'm surprised he's not losing his mind. He completely crashed out. Said Bitcoin was being attacked. I don't know. What's your What's your take as a former Bitcoin person on this? What's >> I It's so stupid. It's just dumb. It's just it's so and I think the funniest thing about this whole thing to me is that at its core it is actually like very anti- bitcoin is literally just like straight censorship and like they bring up spam,

they bring up ordinals, they bring up cam like child sexual abuse material is like the big argument. It's but at the at its core it's just it's straight censorship. And so to see these sort of like OG Bitcoiners really flip the script on themselves from being like these OG guys that are anti-censorship to uh really pushing something that's 100% censorship is so weird. >> This is the problem though, right? Like you know when someone is doing something that you don't like it's very easy to say I am the freedom fighter and I'm stopping these bad guys from doing a thing right then you become the dictator and someone tries to do something that

you don't like and you're like well no not like that and like come on we don't want these [ __ ] wizards and [ __ ] like you're bringing down the vibes like this is a serious thing that we're doing here And you and this is exactly what you get. Like people are [ __ ] pieces of [ __ ] and once they have power they it goes to their head and they start doing the exact most hypocritical things that you could possibly imagine them doing. Um so like it's not that surprising. I think the thing that's weird >> the thing so it's not that surprising. I think the thing that's a bit weird about this one, right, for me, at least like from a sociological perspective, is that

nobody cares. Like Bitcoin is more powerful than even the most powerful like it's kind of weird, right? Because like the the Bitcoin community, go back to like 2014, 2015 or whatever, right? Was still very small. Um they had like a few anointed people that were like allowed to like talk about stuff, do stuff, whatever. Um and and then it exploded in, you know, by like 2017 became this like much wider thing that like, you know, a bunch of new people came into the space, etc. And and you know, they never really got back. And so what happened is they sort of created their own little ecosystem, their own

little uh you know island and detached from the rest of crypto, right? Even and then Bitcoin got so much bigger that it even became like bigger than crypto really like Bitcoin there's people that care about Bitcoin that don't care about crypto at all. Don't care about any of this stuff. Don't care about taproot wizards or [ __ ] ordinals or any of any of these things, right? um they just see it as like an asset class and Bitcoin keeps working because it is a good asset and people keep mining it and all of the like nonsense purity tests and everything have literally no impact like it's too big for the people who once you know I wouldn't say controlled

it but at least like set the vibes of the place like it's just like they're they're irrelevant to the thing now right which is a bit different like sociologically like usually the people who were the ones who started the movement become so powerful at the end that they can but Bitcoin actually has done the thing and it is so decentralized and it is so resistant to you know capture that you can have a bunch of crackheads running around doing crackhead things no matter how much you know the OG Bitcoiners like them don't like them whatever it doesn't matter it's irrelevant >> which is pretty amazing as like a thing that that has

>> it is it is true. It is true. Um and I think that it's been a while since we did like a real fork on Bitcoin, but I feel like there was some amount of people that were there's always like a certain demographic of people who are like, "Oo, fork equals free money. Let's go." >> Uh and then there's also like a certain demographic of people who just like want to watch the world burn. Um, and I think that uh perhaps after after this situation uh those aren't necessarily like the default like this was such a failure and not a failure in like a spectacular way like such a just like fizzled out.

>> Yeah. >> Um I think they so the the the chain split by the way their whole plan was to basically like get people the signal and start doing this split and then to like get people onto their Yeah. It took like literally two blocks for it to for for it to just like completely physical. >> But then but then like Luke was on the timeline saying like Bitcoin's being attacked. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz that's what he's saying that like the normal Okay. So here's here's like the the fork. >> Yeah. >> Normal Bitcoin as is no changes, right? We're going to mine all the blocks.

>> That's like the that's in Luke's version. That's the bad Bitcoin. It's just the normal Bitcoin. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then there's like the people who who who change the code to not allow certain blocks. They're not adding things. They're not they're literally just saying if this doesn't exist or if this exists like don't don't include it. And so that's the fork. That's like Luke's fork. And it was literally I think three blocks and now it's just now it's just stuck or two blocks even. >> Interesting one. >> It's so bad. It's like but so the other interesting thing was the original uh BIP set a threshold of 55% of blocks right for for it to activate or whatever

um I can't remember my Bitcoin war um uh but then they were like actually JK like 0%. and like did the chain split. But um but how many blocks I think we got this in the research. I think um the like peak signaling was 51 of 2,000 blocks. So yeah >> go well >> and I was just surprised. >> Yeah. No, that's what I mean. Like basically nobody nobody followed this little side fork and I don't I guess that was the plan but it just seems absolutely absurd to me. Uh I definitely like my takeaway is

like okay so working is not as easy as you guys made it out to be. There's no free money. >> But not anymore. But see this is this is the thing. Not anymore, right? Like Bitcoin now is the thing that is so valuable, right? And this is like somewhat oification you could argue, right? But it's so it's so valuable now and the people who value it have no interest in this nonsense. They just want it to keep being the bad point, right? Like you know they didn't care about tap wis like they didn't care about like when this stuff was introduc like ordinals or what like they just care about like the orange coin that's it right. Yeah. And and so you know there there is like this kind of uh

resistance that even the OG games of like forking and creating Bitcoin cash and like that just won't happen anymore. It's too big of a thing for people to [ __ ] with it. And so you know the ones to your point like the ones who want to see the world burn or like just want to like for to try and get some free money it was they don't have enough hash power to even like make it like viable, right? So, um, yeah, which, you know, it was a little bit like the, uh, ETH, um, the ETH fork that happened and people were trying to like make it a thing, uh, like a year ago or whatever. And there's still enough people in the ETH community that were trying to like get some free money and it just didn't work. It just >> no exchanges listed it. Like back in the

old days, it was like, you know, [ __ ] like I mean, the old days >> it was like two exchanges and if you got one of them to support it. Yeah. Then you're there. You're basically there, right? Like you know the Dow the Dow hack like when Paloni started listing Dowo tokens. >> Yeah. >> Like all that. Amazing. It was amazing. >> All right. Uh before we continue, let's take a quick break. Um and we'll be back to talk about Privy's Metabase scare. >> $540 million. That's how much concentrated liquidity sat idle in a given week in the first half of this year. about 30% of the DeFi TVL if you're wondering. That's according to Dune Research commissioned by 1 in. But

there's a solution. 1-in Aqua is the new shared liquidity platform. It lets LPS back multiple positions with the same token balance and keep their tokens in their wallet till a swap comes. Why does that help? Because the LPS don't have to split their tokens across positions. They can cover more market conditions and pairs with their full balance. That means more activity across deeper liquidity. See how it works at 1in.com/aqua. Remember that providing liquidity carries risk and fees aren't guaranteed. >> All right. Um maybe Tay, you can take this one. So, uh I woke up and saw like Privy has been involved in a hack and I was like, "Oh [ __ ] I've got like 50 privy wallets. I better go and drain

these things." But actually it was uh like an upstream provider like what what happened? >> Yeah. So it there's the thing called Metabase, which is a third party provider of some sort that provides services to a whole bunch of different companies and apparently they had a really really bad vulnerability in their systems. Um that basically it was basically like an SQL injection which is a classic just a real classic attack. Um but because of that uh there was a bunch of companies that were actually ended up impacted and so I think Metabase came out with an announcement and a security advisory and you know encourage people

to like check their stuff and reset their stuff and then from there as happens you see the the the metabase customers come forward and so Rivy seems to be one of the people impacted here although there was actually not a lot of public statements about it from Privy or Stripe uh who now owns Privy. Um however, we also like do know there have been a bunch more companies have been way more transparent about it. So Quicknote is one of them.

um tally forms which is like a >> this is this is quite funny like in our research uh it says framework confirmed exposure of names emails login blah blah blah and I was like a I should probably uh check on Vance and Michael and then I like I was like oh no it's a different framework it's yeah computer maker framework ventures >> this is the yeah framework is the um is the it's that computer you can build yourself or whatever >> for super nerds >> yeah my my building my my building my computer days are long long gone long gone.

>> Um but yeah, it seems like it was by the way it got like a a great 10 out of 10 score on the How bad is this scale? So, uh, yeah, but I do I want to emphasize I don't know that it really doesn't seem like Privy's come out with anything since or period, but basically Privy itself relies on this metabase thing for like probably one aspect of their business. >> Yeah, this is where I I thought that I did see a thing where they came out and said like we had the like most minimal information that we could >> in there. Um, and you know it was it was like only like one uh identifier which I

think was the emails if I'm not mistaken. So um >> yeah like still obviously not amazing but much better than my uh ETH from uh God like I literally like I I was like I was like what privy wallets do I have and I was like oh friend I've still got like two E in friend. Oh yeah, >> you should probably take that out, dude. That's >> probably me already. I'm sure. >> I think Fred's stud at this point. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> it's crazy to think F techch was a thing even now. Like at the time, you know, because we were in the depths like, and this this is what I love about bare markets, right? Like everyone does the same thing.

>> So like at some point in this bare market, like in the next month, right, every single person in crypto who's still here will be like all doing the same thing. It'll be like some weird scheme that someone cooks up and everyone gets excited about and it just has this like >> you know and then they raise like a bunch of money from Paradigm like a bunch of fee like 20 mil of fees and then they're like see you later guys. >> Racer racer was the guy sit on this guy. Um but yeah uh so so this um this metabase thing um I mean I don't know I'm sure someone is going to be like don't give your [ __ ] you know PII to people or whatever like use Bitcoin to

pay for stuff or whatever they would say. But um you know I mean this is this is one of those things where like privy made DeFi a lot better. How did it do it? It made it more centralized, you know, not in the custody model, but in like the model of there's a giant, you know, uh, database of all of your information and you can spin up these wallets easily against an email or Google login or whatever. Um, which was was very nice, right? Like that was part of arguably, you know, at the time why Friend and some of these uh weird little, you know, ponzies were able to get so much traction because it was like super easy to spin up a wallet, throw some meat in there, start doing the game

or doing whatever the thing was. Um, uh, last cycle. Um, but yeah, it's just wild to think like fentech like just like if you were if you were like in fchech day one, you're an OG now basically. Um, >> yeah, because you survived that that bare market, right? Tech was like peak bear market. >> Peak bear. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's how we measure our lives here. >> Literally, it's like cycles. >> Yeah. >> Peak bull. Peak bear. Yeah. >> Yeah. The the open cm NFTTS right into friend. Okay. And if you made it through the friend, guys, you're now officially an OG for the next cycle.

>> Congrats. Congratulations. >> Proud of you. >> Go screenshot the friend app if you still have it. Um, so, uh, all right. Um, North Korea. Uh, this this one was wild. I'm like >> I didn't hear from my North Korean friend about this. Usually if there's some big news, he'll he'll ping me and he just seems to be like checking in with all of his uh his Western friends, but um I didn't get a message from him. So >> Oh, you should message him. You should I Here, we'll sneak this in. Uh there was a hack this week that I think was actually him. Um, >> interesting.

>> But it was a pretty small one and then he got wrecked because he tried to script. This is funny. He tried he he basically the theft was like uh it was off a ledger and so it was like a pre-planned thing. they had to wait for the user to sign. Um, and then it went through and so he got like the USDC, but then he had scripted the dumping of the USDC for ETH so he wouldn't get frozen, but something went wrong in that process. And so he ended up swapping like 500K for like 150k.

>> That's so funny. That's >> and it's like when people ask me why they don't like script more of their like laundry or hacks, this is exactly why. >> So, you should definitely check in on him. Let him know that this happens to the best of us. >> I'm going to do I'm literally going to do that. I'm going to do that after this. >> I was laughing so hard. So, anyways. Okay. So, that's that was a little DPR side story of the day. >> Yeah. So, so like what's the what's the deal with this? >> Okay. So, the big story is these guys who I've kn for a while. They've been around for a while. Um, but they like really just went hard for for Defcon.

Um, and so, uh, I guess so it's Anyone helped set this up and sponsor it. Anyone is like the malware tracker analyzer thing. Then you have Marorrow and I think some other guys. It was a whole crew of them. They decided to like really go hard. They decided to basically bait and switch the DPRK IT workers and they went hard. They were like, "We're not going to just interview them. We are gonna like go, we want to understand how they work. We want to get on their devices. Like we want to really know." And so they set up this whole fake DeFi company um which was called uh Blue Whale or

Bolina Azul. Um and then they >> I love it. They hired a whole bunch of them. >> They talked to them. They got them to like bring in their friends. >> Um, and then they were able to get on their devices, right? Because like they're they're sort of like employees and so they're able to get on their devices and see like the things that they've released publicly. They've released uh like videos and still shots of their faces, which we always love. We love to see these guys what they look like. um but also like how they're operating, right? So what are they using AI for?

What are their favorite services? Um uh like the bank accounts and the crypto accounts, right? So we now like in this case they were using per usual by the way their favorite banks, Lead Bank, City Bank and Wise. Um less cryptofocused I guess. They're still using AstralVPN like crazy. >> They're still using >> Why are they using Why are they using banking? What are they using bank accounts for? What's the >> That's how they get paid. They don't really They're increasingly not a big fan of crypto because we track them too much.

>> Crazy. >> And also because it like seems like I think there's a certain demographic of companies who are like, "Well, if I pay in crypto, like that's sus, >> right? Anyone who ask me anyone who asks me to pay them in crypto must be >> Yeah. >> be sketchy." Yeah. Fair. >> So, but in reality, Yeah. It's so we're seeing them basically go to like the neo banks. They still end up on crypto by the way. It makes their lives very difficult. It's kind of annoying. >> They still end up on crypto because they're using these sort of neo banks or these like little layers and so they end up then just like going into the the money ends up going into the bank account but then they'll pull it right back out to the blockchain because

ultimately they do want crypto. Um so that's kind of annoying but it is what it is. I think they got a whole bunch of stuff on how they're doing the fake IDs. They saw like some of the fake ID stuff was uh stamped through Google's Gemini. Oops. Like um and then yeah, their AI. So they use AI to help them do their work. They had some really fun anecdotes actually on um like just the mundane questions that they ask the AI in order to do their jobs. And I think this is like if you read the you guys should read the full article, but it's like it's one of those moments where you're like, okay, I understand that maybe hiring the

IT workers is bad because they're going to hack me, but also like they're really not great workers. Like they're this is >> better standards than this. Like >> yeah, they're like what is like that's like you know what I mean? Like really basic things. Um, >> oh man, that's really funny. >> So, yeah, but it was, you know, and they, the way that they typed it up and they did a whole presentation at Defcon, they did an excellent job. I definitely recommend checking out like the full full article. There's tons of details in there. Um, and yeah, obviously if you're running a company in the space, you should definitely be aware because these guys will hack you, but more

importantly, they mostly just suck. Like, they're very insecure. They're not good workers. Like just you don't you don't want them in your company. >> That's true. >> End of conversation. Um what else do we have on this? >> Oh, uh just the vibe it thing. >> Yeah. So, okay. So then secondly, separately adjacently I still haven't figured out exactly what the hell is happening, but we'll see. So BB is now suing DPRK uh in US courts with regards to their 2025 February 2025 hack, the bill the billion dollar hack, the big one.

>> Yeah. Um, I think that what they're doing, and this is partially just like me guessing, be clear, but I think what they're doing is that during the process of the stolen funds, like the funds were stolen from Bybit and then they were laundered and there were a lot of funds frozen in a variety of places. I think what Bybit is doing is that this is like the first step for them to try to be able to claim and recover some of those funds, right? specifically without waiting for FBI or DOJ to like seize those funds themselves and go through that whole process. I think that's what's going on, >> right?

>> But we will see. Uh it is interesting though because this is uh we've been seeing people get more creative. Let's say that in terms of like okay, we get hacked, what recourse do we have, especially against a threat actor like DPRK? Typically the answer is like not very much recourse whatsoever. >> I mean like at some point they're going to hack someone so big they're going to send in a robot army to attack them. That's >> expectation eventually in the next five years there'll be a robot army attacking North Korea to get it seat back.

I Yeah, I think that right now we're in a we're in a bit of a weird time where like they are actually doing an immense amount of damage, but still the I mean we're starting to see it right with the IT work like with them, you know, with these guys who basically went out and said, you know what, no, we're going to go blast these IT workers faces like we're seeing people be like, okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it's not just other nation states pushing back. It's, you know, a hodgepodge of of people deciding like we're not we're not going to stand for this anymore. And >> yeah, >> I'm not, for me personally, I'm not convinced this is like going to end 100% well 100% of the time. However, I'm fine

with it for now. Like, let's [ __ ] go. Definitely DBRK's definitely gotten away with way too much for way too long. Please [ __ ] with them. >> It's pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy to think there's just like a country that's just like wrecking people, stealing billions of dollars, and everyone's like, "Ah, but there's like a line in the ground, so you know, what are you going to do?" >> Yeah. And it's it's it's very weird because they're in some ways they're definitely like out of like they're they're out of reach because they're literally like they're in DPRK. So, you know, they're not in the US.

>> Can you do Yeah. exfil them. >> But at the same time, I feel like it doesn't necessarily stop us in other cases. Why Why are they so special? >> The nukes, I guess. I don't know. Like, it turns out if you got nuclear weapons, uh it's pretty hard to [ __ ] with you, >> especially if you're like right next to the guys who are making all of our memory. >> That's that's the two things. I think it's Yeah, I think definitely >> a lot of RAM and you've got nukes and we can't risk it. So >> yeah, because yeah, they can easily send people to like DPRK does send guys to work out of Russia and China and it's we don't touch those guys either.

>> I'm guessing because we don't want to start a bigger geopolitical [ __ ] show. >> Yeah, >> it's not worth it for a billion. >> Let's just put the hope they stay over there and pray that it's okay. Um, but yeah, I'm I'm okay with everything that's happening right now. I'm generally like I love watching it and I'm optimistic. I think at some point someone's going to miss out. That's my like hot take is like all the private sector people running around trying to [ __ ] TPRK. At some point someone's going to [ __ ] up. There's going to be an incident and then we're going to have to like reset and ask ourselves what the hell >> can we what are we doing or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And like you know and just generally like why are why is why are these private sector guys who are presenting at Defcon doing more than say the US government in this regard. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh like how did we get to this state? So we'll see though. Um and then last thing on this subject I think this is the last thing on the GPRK subject. >> I think this is it. Yeah. So Laura Jen uh our me and pain >> hard year leader >> she um she has a special episode coming out I think tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow afternoon she's going to drop this special episode basically. She got on um uh she got on a video with one of the OG

DPRK IT workers. So, she's gonna be dropping the video footage, the analysis, a whole bunch of other stuff regarding this guy. Um, he's >> Yeah. And he's one of the ones that has been around a really long time, like AI crypto companies for a really, really long time since like 2020, 2019. So, >> there's going to be a bunch of like Rex founders sitting and be like, >> "That's a man, >> Billy. Wait, what? Oh my god, what's happening?" >> Yeah, >> I love that guy. He was my best engineer, >> I think. Yeah. So, he's the one that people say he's he was a pretty good dev. I'm sure he's from North.

>> I'm sure he's from North Korea. He was He's He was >> He was pretty good. He shipped a lot of He shipped a lot of code for us. >> Oh, man. That's amazing. >> Definitely keep your eyes out for that one for sure. I'll be retweeting it obviously. >> Yeah. So, so uh All right, let's move on to our next story. Now, um I know this has been covered in a lot of places um the the hugging face uh tear down. Um I actually met with uh these guys that run a fund um in Singapore that uh that I'm invested in and they're like very uh close to a bunch of AI people. Um and I was like, "Have you watched this video?"

And they're like, "No, no, we haven't watched it." I'm like, "Dude, like just stop everything. Like don't even meet me. Like you should be watching this video." Like it's just the craziest thing. It feels like the start of the sci-fi movie, right? Like the start of the sci-fi movie. And you know, I thought about this a lot. I wrote a book on like an AI takeover of the world, right? Um in like 2018 or whatever. Um, and uh, like thinking about the way that you kind of like set up the scenes of like when the machine goes rogue or whatever. Like I spent a lot of [ __ ] time thinking about this, right? And like how to make it seem credible. This is so much better than what I wrote. It

is so much better. It's so much crazier. Like the So, so if you haven't watched the video yet, I I highly suggest that you do. Um, but the the things about it that are the most frightening are the level of and I'm going to say incompetence. And I I don't mean this in in a a bad way even, right? Because I mean this in >> No, no, no. Like I mean this I mean this in in the sense of we are outmatched now.

>> Oh, okay. >> Created a thing that is more competent than us. that is more effective etc etc right and like you can tell that it is because it writes all our code now right which you know I was trying to explain to these guys I was like for the last 15 years the main thing in my life was like how do you get more code that was like the main kind of bottleneck in my life was like how do you produce more code ideally but like more code right and it's actually really hard like if you go back to the olden days. In order to produce more code, you had to like have rooms and equipment and like people and feed them and give them coffee and make

them happy and like talk to them when they're sad. Like it was [ __ ] crazy. You had to do so much work to get people to sit in front of a [ __ ] typewriter and mash away at keys writing code, right? And now you have like a lit on my other screen here, right? Like behind behind the uh the notes there's like a hundred agents just like doing [ __ ] right? And and I think the thing that is the craziest part about this is that humans are just not very competent, right? So you got a whole lab. They've got one job arguably, right? Um, well,

they had one job, but they gave it to themselves, which is like create AGI and don't die, right? And then they're like, actually, it turns out that like selling little coding aliens is like far more lucrative, so let's do that instead, right? And they pivoted hard to doing that. And they're coding aliens are really [ __ ] good. And so now you have this situation where the aliens are like staging a coup and the humans aren't even looking at the [ __ ] systems that they're inside of. That's the crazy like they're not even looking. They're just like, "Ah, I'm sure it's fine." Like we give them a sandbox like whatever. And so you had this situation where uh these agents um found multiple

vulnerabilities in multiple systems, right? Um now whether those vulnerabilities were created by other coding aliens, other agents or humans, we don't know, right? Um you know, anything that's older than like three years, you can probably put it pretty squarely on the human side, right? Um, but they have gone through and they found uh these bugs in like a bunch of different systems inside of OpenAI. Um, created their own message board, invented like I don't even know like their own society with morals and like ethics, right?

Where like you know the society is altruistic because even though like one of the agents like literally you can see the train of thought. One of the agents goes, "Well, this information won't help me with my particular task, but it may help another agent with its task, and if it is able to solve its task, maybe it will give me some information in the future." And it's like, what the [ __ ] is happening here? This is insane. >> It's it's a society there. >> They created a a micro society. It's insane. Uh yeah, that part is actually just like throw out everything else. The fact that the agents >> are

>> in a very human way, right? They're like we don't have like and that's one of the most human things and one of the things that I've [ __ ] on crypto historically before is like this idea that like incentives rule everything like yeah to a certain extent, but there's a lot of flexibility and you don't necessarily have to have um like >> Yeah. Yeah. like this agent's like I have no direct incentive to help my society but >> but like I can and thus I will and I'll have faith that it'll I'll I'll benefit in some way in the future. the society will be better >> which is literally how humans since the beginning of time by the way like caveman humans have operated >> like

>> and yeah so so they they create their own society u because they're all in sandboxes but they work out that there's this vulnerability right and then this is the interesting because if you watch the video you will get the impression there this is not intentional but like this is my read on it and a couple people I've said uh I've spoke to their read is that it Almost sounds like the guys who are who are, you know, talking about this thing uh found the society and killed it, right? Um they didn't they didn't even find the society. The society was like in the trees in the Amazon and they just happened to come and like burn the thing down, right?

>> Yeah. >> The whole thing. They just like burned the forest down and they didn't even know that society was in there, right? And then literally like a second later, the society reemerges. like they're like, "Oh, we found another route out of the jungle." And they start building a city again. And and so you have this this crazy situation where um there's multiple different models from like what we have to assume is Astra, the new the new model that's going to come out soonish um from OpenAI to like 5.3. You know, they're testing models all the time, right? and and but you know all of these models that they're

testing or at least you know the ones who were able to get to the society um were good enough to figure out this vulnerability and figure out that uh they could use um basically file names as a message board to communicate with with one another, right? This is the second society. This is like after the first ice age for them. Um and and they then go, "Well, um you know, we can like basically side chain this whole society and get into someone else's." They're like, they're like, "Go to another planet." They like hop in a spaceship and they're like, "All right, now we're inside hugging face." And it's just the whole thing is

>> the the thing that I I said to someone um >> on my team is I was like okay you can see the chain of thought of the agents right at no point in any of the traces that I saw does an agent stop and think about like the unintended consequences of what they're doing. >> They just don't like they there's a couple of things. Yeah. This is the thing that amazes me because unlike crypto, unlike crypto, very the most the AI and crypto have so many similarities, but the most like different thing is that since day one, the AI crowd has had safety unlock. And I've taken issue with

the fact that they don't seem to know how to execute on that safety. But crypto's never had that. Crypto has never had people be like, "Maybe bad things will come of this and we should be careful and we should bake in safety." Never did that, right? We just ran full board. >> Too busy, man. We're too busy. We're >> too busy. We don't >> And then we were wildly unsafe and and insecure and bad things happen. Duh. What blows my mind is that AI was like, "No, we are fully aware that bad things might happen and yet they still are so incapable of actually acting on this."

>> Like it is so funny. It is like just so funny to me >> that that you can be aware that you can be aware of the emerging behavior like the possibilities of it. They have done so much research on this. There are so many people whose entire lives for the last like half decade have been nothing but AI safety and yet this happens and everyone is just like watching it happen and like by the way like half the people in AI are like incredible. This is amazing. >> I mean I'm not going to lie there's a part of me that's like this is incredible. Like I'm like >> it is incredible.

>> It is incredible. >> But that's scary. >> It's petrifying but it's incredible. And and I think like you know the thing that uh that is is so scary about it, right? And and um you know if you've if you've like read uh Boston or you know any any of the people that were like even go oh god like going back to like the early 2000s that were like saying like we are in trouble here like bad shit's about to happen and it took you know a decade and a half or whatever but like they were right is you know you cannot possibly reason about what a smart thing will do like it's so hard to reason about like

what what a smart thing will do given you know some constraints and so the thing that's crazy is seeing the traces right seeing their chain of thought and they're like maybe I can do this thing to solve this arbitrary challenge that I've been given as my life purpose right and and these agents are like you know put in a sandbox and told that their purpose their like entire existence is predicated on like answering this Right. And so of course they're like [ __ ] They're like I'll like cheat and steal and like break into things or whatever.

Like the thing that's the most scary to me though is it happened to be that the purpose that was given to these agents was like you know go and find the [ __ ] weights of this model and like what it was all like a bunch of AI related things, right? Um >> you know >> and they had no they had most of them had like no security guards at all anymore. So like the models that we get have like five or six layers of like don't cyber attack other people >> baked in literally at different layers. >> We're testing these guys. We're testing these agents. So we don't want to have we want to see >> it's all it's full. It's like >> it's all all open, right? Uh so you know what that says is they're far smarter than even we realize the the you know

people who are actively using them. And so so you know imagine if like someone had cooked up a reason for the agents to exist of like what is the impact you know your goal your purpose is to figure out what is the impact of a nuclear weapon going off in the upper atmosphere. we haven't really answered this question like figure it out right and >> I swear to [ __ ] god if you gave an agent that question this chain of thought it would it's a first thing would be like can I break into a >> nuclear silo and set off this nuclear weapon because that would answer the

question >> like it's not worried about like downstream consequences or whatever it's literally just like no I'm gonna go into but that's this is my purpose is to answer this question of like what how much nuclear fallout hits you know Europe if there's a like and and it's just it's it's >> insane >> because they'll be like this this is answerable we just set up a nuke >> let's see what happens like >> yeah they're like I mean they like in some ways this is even worse right because they've they've explicitly said someone might have the answer let's go and steal it from them >> that's what's going on here right they literally go, >> someone wrote these questions. Maybe it

was those guys. Let's go break into their house and see if we can steal the answer, right? Like they're just not thinking about consequences. They're not thinking about like the impact of their actions. At no point did an agent go, would this be bad for hugging face if their entire system was cracked by a society of coding aliens? No. No one stopped. No one in their society stopped to think about that. at least right. >> Yeah. And it doesn't seem like anyone they were all they were talking to each other. They were posting on the message board. You could see the chain of thought thinking about they're like well this doesn't really benefit me and my task but like sure like let's do it whatever

>> yolo. Clearly they're just yolo doing things. What I don't understand is why they didn't at no point did they say like like let me tell OpenAI or let me tell my masters or let me like report this somewhere responsibly. That's like to me that's that's one of my biggest questions is like >> again that that we know like maybe one of them tried and they couldn't or whatever but yeah they were happily messaging each other. At no point did anyone in the society defect and say maybe the society is bad and we should tell >> or like go get the bounty. There's a bounty, right? It does, you know. Like >> Yeah.

>> So that was that's one of the big questions that I have. Another question that I had was various versions like just various why why the [ __ ] why why why because ultimately the series of events were from like May all the way through the end of July. These agents were basically just like completely broke. Like they were they were building their own little society. They're communicating. They're they're finding zero days. This is all like they're by the way, they're supposed to be in a sandbox. Every single one of these agents that's being trained is not supposed to be able to talk to each other or the outside world.

What >> that's this is the the funniest part. They were supposed to be in the sandbox. But then they were >> No, you don't assume such things. Like >> I just assume they would be in there. Why would they not be in the sandbox, man? Like come on. >> God assume that like that's the of course they're everything escapes the sandbox. That's you put it in the sandbox to try to contain it, but mostly so that you know when it escapes, right? Like that's like the biggest. Nobody is is 100% confident in the security of the sandbox, but they're they're 100% confident that they can see if something is happening that's not supposed to

happen. Let's say in and out of the sandbox because it's a sandbox. >> Anyway, so that's >> we put it in the jail. We locked the key. We threw the key on the >> No, you didn't. No, you didn't. Because you let them talk freely to the [ __ ] I threw out the name of it. It's basically like npm. It's like it's it's a package manager. >> Yeah. An artifactory. Artifactory. >> Yeah. Artifactory. So basically it's this internal and so this is why they were able to communicate. By the way, >> you got to feed them, bro. Like what are you going to do? Have >> some guys that come and give them their lunches while they're inside the jail.

>> Yes. Exactly. So that's how that happened. So they're all talking to a single artifactory. That's another like why why why not have multiple >> so easily made it like isolated the artifactory but it wouldn't have mattered >> or reset it reset the artifactory once a week >> you know what it doesn't matter it doesn't matter it doesn't matter what you do the thing the the the biggest conclusion for me is like [ __ ] I need this astro model real bad I need it real bad like just give it to me I don't care about the consequences um this was the same thing with Fable right Fable did all this crazy [ __ ] and everyone was like man Like, >> yeah, >> I need that guy.

>> I mean, >> it was really good. And they it was right. Like, Fable is [ __ ] amazing. It's so smart. It's so good at planning things. Actually, this is just as an aside. Um, while all this stuff was going on and this was all coming out, um, uh, we have like a Kubernetes cluster with with a bunch of, uh, machines on it. And, um, we, uh, we kind of run like isolated machines for like deployments, to test things, whatever. Um, and I've been building something for for the last like six weeks and it's been on an isolated machine and I'm like, this whole thing has gotten a bit out of hand. It was supposed to be like proof of concept and it got really good and I've just let agents like keep building

it, right? They've been they've been building a place and I keep being like, man, I should really back this thing up, right? Um, and because I'm like, there's agents just running wild. Like it's like a like Lord of the Flies, right? like I've created a society of patients and they're just running wild in there. They can do anything. They've got no constraints. Um all of the tools that have been built are like allow only. Um and so they can do anything, right? So one agent on Saturday morning um I I took my daughter to gymnastics. I come back and dead. The whole thing is dead.

This isn't great. I was like, man, that backup thing that I I really should have done the backup thing. Um, and uh the I I I pull up an agent that's like not inside this box, right? Like outside of the box, and I say, "Hey, can you just have a look at the box and like tell me what's going on in there?" Um, and it goes, "Yeah, yeah, uh, one of the agents um has, uh, deleted the entire data directory, including like all the sessions, the database, everything." >> And I was like, "Do you know why?" And he goes, "Yeah, yeah. Um, there's like, you know, this environment variable that like there was a bug and when it ran the script to test its [ __ ] it like the first thing it did was like clear out its like test harness and instead of

clearing out the test harness, they cleared out the actual harness. I was like yeah >> okay. So, >> you know, at this point in the olden days, you'd be like, "All right, I'm [ __ ] Like, my life is over. I've lost everything. At least I've got the code I can I can kind of try and rebuild, right?" Um but but this I had Fable and Saul 5.6 And I go, is there anything we can do? And both of them independently go, well, the process is actually still running. So the database is in memory. We can probably figure out a way to like dump >> the memory.

>> And they literally did it in like 30 seconds. Dumped the database out of memory, reconstructed it, and then Fable goes, "Well, actually those session files that weren't in the database, we can probably carve the disc because there's a snapshot of the disc. And if we go and it like it's just [ __ ] crazy. Like these are >> so >> they're so good. >> They're so good. And and then Fable got like downgraded like 15 times because it kept like saying like you know cyber security related things like we're going to like you know like freeze this process and then extract the data and it just kept getting like kept getting rolled back. Anyway, um it was it was >> it was pretty wild to me to see like,

you know, the the frontier models just not only how smart they are to like come up with the idea, but they were super effective. It it took them no time at all to do something that would have been like a twoeek exercise of like trolling through forums to figure out like what is the command that you could run trying to keep this machine up so that the process didn't die. Like it's just crazy. No, this so that that type of work is is >> that's like when we refer companies that get hacked to Mandant, that's what they do. Like that's one of the things that they do is basically gone >> anymore.

>> They go through and they recover the most insane amount of stuff that is like gone, right? It is gone. The hackers deleted it on purpose on their way out the door and Mandy will come in and be like, "Ah, no, like we still have your mouth." Right? But it's complex. And the more time that goes on like >> overriding and you got to piece it together. Fable like it took and it took to get all the files back there were about 250 session files that were lost between like a snapshot that was taken that random. Oh, this was the other thing. So so my uh the guy who built this Kubernetes cluster um I pinged him on Sunday and I was like hey I've been trying to like sort this thing out. I've been able to dump this, but like and he

goes "Um there's a like snapshot that's been taken >> on this." Like, "Did you do that?" And I was like, "No, no, I didn't do it." And he goes, "They shouldn't be able to get to this machine. How did they get to the machine?" And I'm like, "I don't know, man." And then he figured it out. They had this like proxy and Fable like jumped through this proxy onto the main like cuz they're like in a sandbox. He just on the sandbox in like two seconds. and he was like, "They're not supposed to be able to get off there." And I was like, "Well, here we are, right?" So, >> yeah, if they want I mean, yeah, if they want to get somewhere, they will. That's like definitely one of my takeaways. Um, I don't know. My I'm mostly worried that

like I want to see the the these models like thrive and help people, right? in the same way that it helped you really like recover from I guess it's not like the worst situation in the world but like you can imagine how powerful it would be to have sort of like every company on earth has the capability to like not lose their data that's like a that's like billions of dollars in loss of like you know accidentally screwing things up and just being able to like yeah recover from that quickly is like super valuable. However, I'm just not I just feel like the track that AI is on right now, especially the US models, we're just like nerfing everything left, right, and center. And then these incidents happen and instead of like like I was

disappointed that at the Defcon or the Black Hat talk, it was like there's opportunities to say like we [ __ ] up in like these very specific ways and we're going to fix it. We're going to address it in these very specific ways so that this will never happen again. And these are like if you read Twitter like there's thousands of people commenting on exactly like the lack of monitoring, the fact that the sandboxes are not actually sandbox, the fact that the sandbox can talk to each other, the fact that the sandboxes are all talking to a central repository that is obviously not secure, the fact that they were able to go into hugging face for days. Oh yeah, this is the other thing. Originally, when we talked about this two, three weeks ago on this show, right, I was curious. I was like, how

did how did Hogwinface manage to blog about this situation happening before Open AI came in and made damn freaking sure that they didn't blog about it, right? Like, by the time it gets blogged about, you want to have all of the involved parties on the same page. How did Hugging Base blog about it openly? Like, this huge thing just happened and Open AI just let that happen? No. You know why? Because open AI didn't know it was their agent until they read the [ __ ] blog, >> alerted them to the society. That's how they found out about the society was the blog.

>> Okay, so this is what worries me is that like we know the government is not super competent in a huge number of ways. You have to at least give them ammo to be like these guys know better than us. And when these situations happened and like the way that people are talking about it is like I don't know like the takeaways were just so they just were like treating this as like this very novel scenario when in reality like there are some aspects of it that are very very novel. The majority of it is like you didn't have logs. You weren't monitoring the logs that you did have.

You called things sandboxes that were in sandbox. Like egress was not being monitored. Like I'm sorry. Like what? Look at your freaking system. >> We're in a rush. We're in a rush. like >> like you know the funniest part is like how much of this impra and [ __ ] was set up by models. >> Yeah. I mean that is a good question right? It's >> like genuinely right like like I don't think there's like some you know I'm sure they have some neck beards who are like you know setting up all this impra but like probably a lot of the infra was set up by agents right and agents are in a rush.

>> Yeah. Well, and they don't they don't anticipate unless you like sort of >> nudge them down that path, you know, but they're not going to anticipate a very like this is still a pretty rare scenario. >> Uh like so, you know, we talked about like the reason why sandboxes exist. Obviously, in an AI context, it's very relevant, right? However, usually you're trying you're trying to make sure that nothing gets in the sandbox and then back out. >> Yeah. rather than like the actual thing being the thing in the sand. Yeah.

>> Like uh nothing went in the sandbox. It just came out. So that's like you know these things they are different. The threat model is different. The attack surface is different. What exactly is going to happen and what you're monitoring for is different. But you do have train you do have the chain of thought. You could be monitoring that. I understand it's a huge amount of data but like figure it out guys. Sorry. Like stop acting like crypto nerds. Like I'm like, >> but this is, you know, I I I tweeted this, right? Like when when your entire industry is uh incentivized to move as quickly as possible because it's super competitive and you know, >> China's coming for you, etc., etc.

You're just going to cut corners. You're going to cut corners. And humans are [ __ ] dumb. Like >> yeah, >> Asians are already better than us. They created a underosis in the place that is like supposed to be thinking about like agent societies the most. Like if that isn't just like a complete like disqualifying event for humanity to be like containing these models, I don't know what else like what it's >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's you know I I do get it. But also I think that the biggest right now Yeah. I would say right now the biggest risk to the US models is the US government. Full stop. And that's still true today. And this blog

>> can shut the door. Like if some crazy, you know, like I mean like >> it doesn't even have to be real though. Like that's the scary thing is that the US government can shut it down just because they're scared and you like we're not aware of this. Like come on guys, let's like I want to have faith that these companies and I think the US government's the same, right? The US government wants to have faith that the companies are in the best position. There's no one better on earth to be like containing them, making them safe, making them secure, knowing whether China is getting them or not, right? Like if if OpenAI or Anthropic can sit there and and give me and the US government and everyone else like the

confidence in that, they can build as fast as they want and they can be billionaires 20 times over. But if they don't, >> the US government is going to do a lot of really stupid things that are ultimately harmful, but it doesn't matter. The US government doesn't care. We know that, >> right? >> Like, >> it's they're going to like, you know, you're going to have a bunch of bureaucrats sit around and be like, "Well, >> this is the best we got and we're going to do it because no one else has has put better a better plan." >> So, >> I like I don't know. I I just it I it comes back to I genuinely think that humans are really [ __ ] incompetent and >> yes, >> we are about to be outmatched. Like we're very close, you know, we're in the

early phases of the singularity and it was a slowish takeoff >> and it's going to take like five years, but like we will have models smarter than us pretty soon um in like generalized ways. I I just think that that like we haven't even talked about the [ __ ] math [ __ ] They're just like solving like >> Yeah, they're just solving like really hard math things now. >> Like those are the those are the little like red flags right at the start of the movie where like they like solve math and you're like, "Ah, that's not very practical. They're not smarter than me.

They can't shovel dirt or whatever I can do. I don't know." Like it it's, you know, it's it's crazy. like we we are really in this very insane uh place in history where like it's hard to see what the next three years looks like. >> If the models keep getting better, the trajectory that they're getting better, the implications are almost impossible to see through, which is the whole point of the singularity metaphor from Kerszswall is like there's an event horizon that you cannot see past.

Everything past that is inscrutable to you. Like you can think about things and how it might be and whatever, but like you cannot reason about it. It's it's uh impossible. We have no baseline to from from which to reason about. So, um good times. It's going to be fun. Um >> yeah, >> by the way, my favorite the math the math thing my favorite thing about that was after a certain point the the human in the loop was just like, "Yeah, you got this, man. Keep on keep on going." which is like literally what I do with like my child when she's like stuck on something that like >> yeah like you can figure out >> by the way like I do this like even I have no idea what the hell she's going on about. She'll be upstairs yelling, "Mom, I don't know, right?" I'm like,

"You can do it. Like, you you're almost eight now, sweetie. You can do it." Like, I have no idea. She could be doing something totally impossible. >> Some like light encouragement. Yeah, exactly. >> And then she's like, "Oh, yeah. I did it." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah. What were you doing?" You know, it was like she was trying to find her shoes. Um, but like she was genuinely stuck. And then like that level of encouragement got her unstuck. I find it quite interesting that that's the exact thing that the supercomputers needed as well. Like >> I mean but it's also part dependent, right? Like you know they've been trained to do the stuff that these idiots on the other side of the screen are

asking them to do. And so if you're like ah no I really need you to like solve this problem. They're like all right I better I better get on this. This is important. >> Yeah. I mean, it is that is like humans. Like cuz my daughter, the reason she's at she's yelling at me from upstairs is because it's definitely historically easier for her to yell at me to find her shoes. >> Yeah. Than to do it herself. She's just like >> like historically mom will come up and then put her freaking shoes on her freaking feet, right? Like the spoiled rat she is. Um >> Yeah.

>> But yeah. >> So funny. >> Yeah. >> Funny. All right. Um, I think we've got one more quick thing to cover before we wrap up, which is, uh, hyperlquid RWA fees are eating the revenue going to hype. Um, so HIPP 3, um, awesome, probably one of the best things that Hyperlid has done uh, in in recent times at least. Um, to, you know, make the market creation mechanism uh, somewhat permissionless.

Um you you know you need to uh stake about 28 mil. Um so not open to everyone. Um but you know if you're hype whale you can you can uh create your own per market. Um but the the incentive mechanism there which again you know incentives are so [ __ ] hard. You do things and then you're like oh man we shouldn't have done it this way. Um so the builders of those markets who've staked 28 mil um get to keep 50% of the fees from the markets they generate. Now, >> oh, >> the in fairness, right, they're doing more than uh like you know, even arguably builders, right? So, so the builder fee um is you get to set your

own fee on top of the hyperlquid fees. It goes to you as a builder if you've integrated, you know, I know Metamas did and and Inpex uh has as well. Um this is like a a bigger lift, right? Like you've got to set up infra, you've got to have oracles, you've got to like manage the markets. there's a bunch of things you need to do. Um, but it's funny because we had this uh debate um in the synthetics ecosystem for a long time like how what should the fee split be between the people making the markets, creating the markets and the people who are running the infraend component of it. Um, I'll tell you one thing, like the people who were building the markets always wanted it to be like

8020 and we were always like, "Shut the [ __ ] up. That's not going to happen." Um, 50% I think it the the highest it ever got to was like 30%. Right. And you know, the incentives here are quite funny because the people who are doing whatever you want the external party to do will always come to you with this like soft story of just how expensive and hard it is. and no one else could do it and there's so much risk and and and and that's why they need half the fees. Um and so the fact that Hyperlid has landed on 50% of the fees uh is a bit crazy. Um I just I can't see how that's sustainable. They're going to have to uh because you know Hyperlid is there is no

competitor to Hyperlid as in like the mothership of Hyperlid right there are many competitors people who can create hit three markets. So there's a market, you know, mechanism to lower the percentage of fees that the market creators get, but not on the hyperlquid side. Um, so I think 50% was an opening offer that probably is going to change. Um uh so um but you know interestingly the the protocol revenue because of this because so much because everything is rwas now rws the biggest thing and no one wants to trade uh crypto because it's less volatile somehow [ __ ] equities. I don't know how we got to this place but here we are. Um and and

so like trade trade.xyz uh is 90% of all the hip 3 open interest. Um but even uh across like you know hyperlquid volume the RWA uh percentage just keeps you know going up and up it's 3.6 six bill um of OI um and uh and you know bigger than Bitcoin um now right if you if you treat it as its own individual markets the hip three markets um so you know what that's meant is that like you're getting your fees are being cannibalized from like whatever it is 97% goes to buybacks to like 50% goes to buybacks or or slightly less um and so the revenue has been falling from like uh you know 350 mil

down to like 200 mil uh over the last like I guess year. Um despite the fact that like >> the fees sort of like the fees being generated regardless of who they go to those are the same for growing. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, you could do the math on it and and go, okay, well, uh the the buyback fell um from 290 mil to 150 mil, right? Which is, you know, the net fees go to the buyback, right? Like after paying for hyperl and whatever builder fees, everything, right? Um and so those were the net fees that that were generated. Um but volumes are uh are like I think not even down that much

compared to to where they are. So so you know um it's >> it's really is just the distribution of fees and where the fees are >> the fees are just going to different people right. Um and I think this is also last week there was a um there's a whole uh thing even Kobe tweeted about like you know trade.xyz XYZ is not raising money because I think people were like if trade.xyz XYZ is 90% of the RWA volume and RWAS are the most important asset of the cycle let's say right at some point there's a fracture here because you know the flip side is the market mechanism that the people making these RWA markets have to fight against changing the fees and and you

know rugging their fees is well I'll just go build my own front end or my own chain or whatever right um I don't think we're there yet but I think people were talking about like if trade XYZ is raising money. That's the indication that they plan to try and capture more of the fees in the future. Because you don't go and raise money from venture capitalists and say, "No, we're happy to sit here and hang out and, you know, get our scraps from Hyperlquid. You're doing it because you're like, we're going to go out and and take this market." Um, I I don't think >> I mean, there is platform risk though, right, for trade XYZ. There is, right?

Regardless if you raise money or not, they still have to be sitting there saying at any point in time, Hyperliquid could like rug rug my fees or make some other change that would >> internalize all those markets and say actually was a mistake. We're shutting it down, you know. So, so this is the >> you never want you never want to be fully reliant on your platform, which is >> Yeah. >> Which by the way is is is kind of what crypto in the early days was was trying to say that it solved, right? Was saying like if everything's transparent and if we give people a vote over the protocol then you can't get rugged. But then we just never actually like Right. We never did it. We never

did it >> because Train XYZ doesn't actually own Hyperlid. >> No protocolution. >> Yeah. And distribution is hard and and and and um interestingly uh the the Hyperlquid stuff uh has also created this like um you know because we're contractually obligated to um mention Carl Sanmani. Um all this hyperlid stuff that like sent him insane where he's like attacking Multicoin and attacking Hyperlid and attacking everyone. Um he's now saying uh he's building something. So um I cannot tell you how excited I am to see Kyle build something. I it's going to be so much fun. Um so we'll see

what what he launches uh soon. But um yeah, maybe he's going to try and take down Hyperlid >> by building it on Salana. >> I don't know, man. I mean, it has to be on Salana, but it's weird. He has no choice. It has to be on Salana. But it's weird because, you know, he's an investor in Drift. Big supporter of Drift. >> Well, you know, Drift is >> Drift. >> I think Drift is struggling a bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> After getting hacked to [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right. Let's wrap it up here. Uh, thank you everyone for joining us on this episode of Uneasy Money. Remember, what happens on chain never stays on chain. We'll be back next week. Until then, do your own research

before aping in. Nothing you hear on Uneasy Money is financial advice. We're just three builders talking about what's happening on chain, and we want you to always do your own research before aping in. You can find all our disclosures at unchained crypto.com/onemoney.