AggLayer Mainnet Launch Is Coming With Marc Boiron

Transcript

then I think you're totally right on like the like let's stop the the fighting and just bring everyone together end users won't be interacting directly with the AG layer and I actually think that's like the wrong perspective you got to think about it from a liquidity and user perspective people tend to forget that's on polygon POS welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.co Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners Redstone modular oracles are available on 50 plus chains trusted by over 100 clients and over 6 billion in total value secured visit redstone.

Finance to find out more Mark welcome to Bangkok uh it's an absolute pleasure to uh host you on the the podcast um like you know we were talking about before we got roll in here we've uh We've covered feel what feels like every inch of polygon but you guys are so expansive that um it it is continuously evolving and growing and so it feels like there's always something happening um what are like obviously the The Vibes have changed a lot over like even the last like two weeks but with respect to polygon specifically like and this Evolution from like a a POS chain to the to the the ZK evm and the and the cdk and now all of these parts combined how

have the Vib evolved what are what's kind of like the The Vibes at polygon now yeah yeah um so thanks for having me first um uh pump to be here so look I think if you go back like a few years what everyone remembers is like a little bit of actually if you go far enough back what you remember is farming madic on a yes like that was polygon and people forget this like that that was polygon and those were some fun days yes that was Dei summer that's it was D summer and it pretty much I mean compounds kicked it Off In fairness but this really like elevated it um and then we kind of turned into like hey let's go bring in like Mass adoption and honestly that turned us into kind of a little bit of a sgy kind of boring crypto company that was not so much fun

uh and so like my mission over the last like year and a half has been like let's bring fun back to polygon um and let's do it in like a totally crypto native way uh and so that's why like what you see is like a movement of us that's like much less focused on like the Enterprise world and focused on like let's actually just bring like fun uh and frankly what people are interested in in crypto back um and so that's like the direction that you'll you'll see and like one big part of this has been like honestly frankly part of how like we've been branding stuff like we have some fun videos that come out once in a while that that people like to have fun with but I think like the more kind of interesting part is like there's this cultural shift but

then there's also like a shift from a product perspective that you said right like we go from POs to like ckvm and if if you were to like ask people probably going like what do we do now like we focus on Cross chain settlement and specifically like the air and then people get confused and they're like why do you have POS and and zkm right and and the answer is like there's a lot of like value built up in POS like it is an actual amazing chain people do not give it the credit that it deserves poly Market I'm going move this just a bit closer to you but yeah I mean poly Market on POS and is the most widely I mean just a massive amount of attention on poly Market in the last liketh and one of the one of the few product

applications that has found product Market fit people tend to forget that's on polygon POS yep exactly and I mean and we saw like on the night of the elections and when that market was settled it settled pretty much with no issues whatsoever right and that's like not that easy to do when uh I can't remember what the number is but it's like a massive number of you users came onto that chain uh and were participating so I mean it was good to see and it's like what POS deserves right um but like when we think about that that's just like one part of what we do and like given the focus on the agare we kind of think of it as a little like POS feeds the rest of the agare it's got It's still got a lot of TBL a lot of liquidity and it's got a butload

of users so like when people think about interoperability we usually think about it purely from a liquidity perspective and I actually think that's like the wrong perspective you got to think about it from a liquidity and users perspective right and so like when you think about it you're really sharing users if you've got liquidity on one chain you get to borrow users from another chain that can interoperate with it and same vice versa from a liquidity perspective so when you think of posos you basically got a chain when it comes into the AG layer that is has like a boatload of users yeah also has quite a bit of liquidity but a boatload of users uh and like real users who are interacting with real applications like poly Market um and so that's kind of like one of the reasons why p is such a

value add to the Ager and similarly Z KVM one of the things that's not well known now is that we're going to be relaunching zkm and it's going to be like a very defi focused uh chain and the thought process here is like if you've got an aggregated Network you want to bring liquidity and ideally you actually don't want liquidity split across all of these networks aggregate it in one chain and let every Network use it and so we're going to aggregate a b load of liquidity in a chain yeah yeah I mean that that's super exciting uh I mean let like we have ZK VM and I think it's still kind of a morphous and like you know people aren't really sure like what it's going to turn into and you

know to hear that it's going to be a much more targeted focused chain dedicated to defi I think is very very exciting uh because it sets the tone for that chain and we've seen we've seen app chains launch we've seen you know uni chain and and and all you know some of these other ones but ultimately the the trend in which we're going is towards this very targeted very specific use case po per chain can still be an ecosystem uh but we're moving away from general purpose we're moving much more into targeted rollups for a specific use case another part of this is is uh kind of what you alluded to is like you know with poly Market success on on polygon POS plugging that into the AG layer is net

new users and liquidity for the entire ecos system and and this is something that we're starting to think a quite a bit more about on the rollup is less infighting and frankly The Vibes and the green candles have made this a lot easier because like when things aren't as fun and light-hearted like there is a lot of infighting and and competition amongst rollup clusters for users and liquidity but once we see kind of that flow in you know then it's like okay now we can we can still solve the same problem same interoperability problems but now it's like okay you know optimism brings in a new user or poly Market on polygon brings in a new user like that is going to have uh liquidity knock on

effects for the entire ecosystem and so there's no more like trying to steal other rollups users it's like how can we generally build the best ecosystem the best experience so that we can get normies in and then ultimately like we have more people on chain yeah I'm like very passionate about this point because I think like and and you can see this actually in the way that the agay has been handled so like we are a contributor to the agay but like very much you will not see polygon branding uh on the agay and this is like very intentional because like if it's polygons like like arbitrum doesn't want to be part of it optim doesn't want to be part of it like scroll doesn't want to be part of it um and it's being built in a way that is like truly neutral to

like the entire ecosystem and I don't honestly not just ethereum right all of web three we want everyone to be able to be part of it and so to me like we've been trying to like break down these barriers and honestly we have really good conversations with like most teams there's only few that like are harder to get in but like the idea with the agair is like just build a fundamental kind of like lowlevel framework and then plug things on top of them right right so like we don't need to compare compete with shared sequencers we don't need to comp compete with like intent right like roll up clusters that want to exist within the AG layer they can exist within the a layer um and it's really intended to like bring everyone together and I think with time people are going to see that we're very serious about

that and part of that's going to start with the fact that like in about three weeks maybe four weeks from now we'll be able to add any evm chain to the AG and so you'll start seeing op stack chains connecting to the agler orbit chains connecting to the agay polygon cdk chains connecting to the aglar but like frankly we don't care if it's a polygon cdk chain or an OP stack chain like just connect to the aglar um and then what you'll see a few months after that is you'll actually start seeing l1's connecting to the aglar non evm l1's connecting to the AG the entire point is like just bring together L it's like as big as the ethereum ecosystem is and as much as we love the ethereum ecosystem it's not like there's not a lot of users elsewhere like salana has a lot of users

why not make it easy to bring them to to ethereum Sal now has a lot of assets let's bring those assets into ethereum like why not um and so that's really like our perspective and I think you're totally right on like the like let's stop the the fighting and just bring everyone together yeah and I I think we've all seen these memes where it's like you know we have 14 standards well what do we need we need a standard to standardize the standards and so now we have we got 15 standards um and I I was having this conversation on a on a Twitter space with Hart lamber who's kind of pushing from across and pushing this intent cross chain intent framework and one of the questions I post to him was like Hey you know we actually had polygon on like the polygon main account

was on this Twitter space kind of showing support as well I was like hey it's kind of weird like polygon's on this Twitter space they're doing agay but we're pushing this intense thing something is not really adding up here like where's the where's the Riff here but but actually what I what I learned was that no these two interop standards are synergistic with one another agair can verify the uh the transfer onto the destination chain via uh it it ZK proving and its aggreg aggregation of proofs and so one thing that we need to do in kind of like a cross-chain in intense world is verify that there was money that was received on the

destination chain what can Ager do well it can it can do verifications really freaking well because it has ZK proofs like baked in like directly in and so what I think we're starting to see is like asynchronous synchronous intense inter all of these interupt Solutions are starting to to converge and and synergis like work with one another again just like super exciting for a unified ethereum and Beyond ecosystem yeah and I think on like the intense part I think this is really interesting CU people like this is like an area that like people know and they don't really fully understand they kind of understand it but like the Ager is not going to be the user facing thing like realistically

like intense is what everybody is going to end up using uh probably um and so like users will be facing um you know across they will not be facing the agair but the reason we work with like across for example is what across is doing is they need solvers on different networks right which means they need capital on different networks and having Capital available all the time is expensive you also when you have a trade executed you now need to rebalance that Capital the longer it takes to rebalance the Capital the more Capital you need in in the system in general um on top of that you're actually taking a risk when you're using solvers like you actually you know you actually have a risk on on

each of these chains and so when you use the aglar the cool thing is you reduce these Capital costs massively because now you can go back even though you get like the near synchronous transactions using intents you can move back as synchronously within seconds using the a layer and rebalance your your Capital um and you don't need to go via an L1 and so in that sense basically what does that do it just lowers user costs um and it lower lowers risks for the uh intent providers and the solvers that lowers their risk they're willing to lower their cost and so basically what you're doing is via the a layer which is not user facing you're basically just creating better costs for the users because the intents can be done more cheaply and with less risk yeah and I

mean how kind of zooming out here like you know we we still have these rollup clust we're working to to align them and and create these interrupt channels between them how do you think some of the incentives will kind of like the incentive landscape and the and the Dynamics between these clusters could change after we have proper interop amongst these different clusters yeah I mean it's it's it's a good question I think there is realistically this part right now where like we're trying to figure out where everybody fits in right like I think the first thing people do is they just assume everything's competitive and they're like I need to fight everybody right and so now you see basically all interop Solutions in some way fighting each other but then if you

really dig in and start looking at like how things are being built there's very like different approaches being taken right and so like I do think there's going to be a world in which you're going to have clusters but I think those clusters are going to look like super different than they do today right now we have a world of like I'll call them like asynchronous clusters right like the elastic chain uh super chain right these are like they're not actually operating in a synchronous manner um that doesn't really make sense to have like that that kind of uh asynchronous transaction like Within These clusters um you can have the same asynchronous experience within all of the Clusters and so that shouldn't exist realistically I think one of them needs to reach scale um and this includes like

the AG so the others just say well it doesn't make sense for us to have this small portion over here what they should instead do is turned into like I'll call them like syn clusters through like shared sequencers for example right you can Envision a world where like um there's a group of chains who say hey we're all open to using the exact same framework and superch chain works this way they're like hey you can't have sovereignty um opposite of the agare approach another reason why they're actually compatible which is like um you can have a a super chain world where you're like Hey we're all using the same um shared sequencer and so we can get synchronous transactions within the super chain world but two things a you can get added security by having the agay part of that um

second for asynchronous transactions whether it's within the uh super chain or going outside the super chain you can use the AG layer for some asynchronous transactions um but ultimately like I don't think anyone's going to accept that because they're basically saying hey I think I'm competitive with you and and we can't do that and there's a world in which we do like realistically you look at the elastic chain uh and then you look at the a very similar designs um there's no doubt that those two things are competitive I think when I look at like something like super chain or like you know orbit clusters like they're actually not competitive with the AG teams are treating them as competitive they're not um and so I think once one of them becomes big

enough they that that'll change and that's part of the reason why the agay is not just a um polygon thing MH that's not that's not good enough we need something that brings together all of web 3 yep not even just all of ethereum all of pu 3 and that is then going to create enough interest for everybody to come join it and you've got a standard that people can use and it's a low-level standard that's not rent seeking in any way it's neutral it's not polygons there's a bunch of contributors I think we're probably at like 30 contributors now on the AG um and you end up in like a much better spot than these competing clusters that shouldn't even be competing as asynchronous clusters and to your point I think cluster not all clusters are the same and so we have

some of these clusters that are out there right but some of them are ZK some of them are optimistic some exist on shared sequencers some are building their own interrupt Solutions others aren't and so we kind of we we're going to continue to see these clusters but I do think that uh some combination of AG layer and intense is the leading solution to connect these clusters together um and so I'm really really stoked to see how that plays out intercluster um a another uh another kind of like angle to this is you know as we connect more and more chains and clusters to the AG and if you can't answer this I I understand we'll take it out but I'm curious what kind of network effects

this will have on the P token and on polygon as you know as as like its cluster right as its business like so yeah how how do AG layer Network effects impact the token yeah uh the honest answer is we're still figuring it out um the way that we look at it is like the AG layer needs to be not run sinking but more of a pay as you go model so if you really think about it like what is the Ager consuming what it's consuming is proofs um some group of proofs which actually is like thousands and thousands of transactions in each proof and so um the world that I Envision is that in some number of years the AG is going to

start charging some fee um and that fee presumably would throw flow through to pole holders as the AG gets decentralized and you need to you know pay out folks who are actually running these these this decentralized network um until that time there's really no reason to have like any meaningful fees even when you do the way that we think about it is like a very small fee like um .001 of a transaction because it's it's thousands of transactions and are proof um that is actually being charged per transaction and you would probably charge it per like batch of of transactions like a proof um and when it gets settled the AG it gets there

there's a fee um in that world you have like a very lowlevel framework has almost no impact on fees when it's a standard that all of web 3 is using it'll add up to be like meaningful enough um is it going to have a trillion dollar valuation probably not um it's going to have many billion dollars valuation yeah it's going to look pretty darn good um and so that's kind of like how we think about it and that that's going to flow through to pole holders as the AG is decentralized yeah and and I think this goes to show like the these are the bigger picture uh dreams and and goals that this industry has is you know we're not building for uh High fee rent seeking in the short term with the set of users that we have onchain now we're thinking 5 10 20 years

into the future about these economies of scale the set of users the set of liquidity that we're going to have on chain then we'll start to think about collecting fees I mean we're going to have millions of chains like literally fast forward I mean yeah so yeah go ahead I I mean I guess this changes from business model and incentives a little bit but like in that Paradigm where there's millions of chains how does agir reach all those chains how extensible is the AG interop solution safe is moving the world's GDP onchain with the introduction of safe net safe is taking this to the next step very soon check out net. safe. Global to learn more about how safe is moving the world's GDP

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singularity yeah I mean the Ager is uh so so there's a few things so um maybe two points that are interesting the first point that I'll say is um the agair does not require anyone to agree to it you will see us connecting the AG to chains who do not ask for it okay um and so you will see most big chains connected to the AG by the end of next year guess what you're aggregated you are aggregated and you don't get to choose um and and and so that's the first thing is like we are actually in control of that and and don't need to wait for others um but I think on the other end of that it really comes down so like Network effects is at a certain point what we're going to see is um everybody saying hey I I'm going to spin

up a chain I don't want to be on my Island okay we already see that and then they say which island do I want to be on and they say I want to be on the biggest island and that Island just continues to grow and nobody's going to launch a chain like in its on its own it it just won't make sense and so I think in the end you have everything congregate around one just because of the network effects yeah yeah I mean I and so that I think makes sense from a business perspective we're going to absolutely see uh shelling points start to emerge um and I think we're already seeing that and AG's is in a position to be one of them technically what is how is that possible like what is the scale at which Ager can run yeah yeah so a few things

so first it's a question of how do we kidnap chains right and our original thinking like when we like like a year ago was thinking about the Ager was like okay let's connect chains that only use execution proofs um problem with that being like honestly not that many chains use execution proofs today it's a very small market like let's that bad idea um and so we expanded and we started saying okay how do we connect any chain and like we the way we think about it right now is like we can take an AWS like server and we can connect it to the Ager without any risk and the reason for that is basically what we refer to as like uh the pessimistic proof and effectively what this is is a proof that tracks Every Chain uh and says what is the

balance on this chain it basically looks at um how many tokens have come in how many have left um and basically calculates that and every CH time there's a cross chain transaction it looks at like hey do you actually have those funds on there um and it doesn't matter whether you have execution proofs or not so like uh Cosmos chain or polygon POS is a great example of this when we first connect poon POs to the AG we're actually going to connect it through what we refer to as proof of consensus we're just going to prove the POS consensus because there are no execution proofs on it yet um and Via that proof we're going to feel comfortable that the token balances that are there and wanting to be transferred can actually be transferred um and so that's like kind of like the idea but

going when you start wanting to scale that even bigger you start needing like probably one very important thing which is just toolkits that make it incredibly easy to connect to any type of chain and so that's basically what we're developing what we're developing is like hey like a an svm toolkit for example now it's simple to connect the agler to like any svm chain every Ras provider that says hey here's like a svm based rollup can connect them to the a layer same thing for Cosmos chains and so on and so forth um obviously like evm chains were pretty much there um and so uh that's going to make it really easy to connect and then the second part is really like the throughput of the Ager big part here is going to be like the the proof aggregation aspect of this

and provs having lower latency and lower cost with time and basically like we just see cost and latency of appr just dropping like this incredibly fast we're very close to that we we know how it works and like in a very short period of time we're going to be able to have like millions and millions of transactions at incredibly low cost um and latencies just continue to drop even further and and that's how we're going to get to the point where you can easily connect all of these chains and then you can easily execute transactions across all these chains easily got it and and yeah I appreciate the the technical kind of uh unpacking there now a little bit higher level but you mentioned that uh AG layer is is it consumes proofs right and I

think that's pretty pretty well understood um and so that is actually the backend for a lot of these systems end users won't be interacting directly with the AG layer so maybe you could kind of fill that Gap right where AG lives down here and users are interacting with something up here like what are the end users interacting with and then could you kind of cross that CM for us this is a really good question I love this one okay so like maybe like like Baseline on the AG because I think there's like actually not withstanding that we've talked about it a lot there's still like a lot of confusion so like the AG is like multiple components a it's a bridge and most people think of it as just a bridge but it's not it's got a bridge it's this unified Bridge uh second thing that it has is this

pessimistic roof that's what provides like the the security that you get uh from the Ager the third one is proof aggregation this is the thing people think creates like the interoperability but it doesn't proof aggregation is the thing that actually lowers the costs by wrapping proofs and wrapping proofs and wrapping proofs and then submitting proofs more infrequently to ethereum but once you actually start having enough chains um because you're amzing the cost across so many chains you can actually start put submitting those proof to ethereum like very quickly but with so many transactions that the costs are incredibly low and so you're you're effectively like lowering ultimate finality on the a layer uh on ethereum in that way and so you're you're doing that by raising like the priority fee on these on sort of the bundles that you're

pushing to ethereum you're you're kind of saying hey we we'll pay quite a bit uh to get this included quickly and you can pay quite a bit because if you have a million rollups you advertize the the quite a bit cost over quite a bit of chains and it becomes relatively cheap per per transaction becomes super cheap per transaction yep um and then the fourth part of kind of the Ager is is actually what we refer to as fast interupt this is the part that most people kind of like missed they think it's been captured by these other three parts and the way that we look at that is basically um so we we believe the world's going to end up with every chain having execution proofs I think everybody believes this now like everyone's going to use ZK proofs across like all of uh crypto um when you get to

that world what you can do is you can take a chain a it creates a proof and then you can take chain B that creates a proof and those true chains want to uh execute a cross chain transaction the moment those proofs are created you can actually execute that cross-chain transaction on the basis of trusting those proofs to be valid even before they're submitted to ethereum and so this is what we're targeting for like uh March is like sub five seconds I'm being conservative we want lower than that transactions cross chain based off of these proofs being able to be trusted um if any one proof doesn't settle to ethereum then the entire transaction gets kind of unbundled and doesn't get executed but generally speaking in the

world of like rollups you can actually be very confident that two proofs that have been created are going to settle to ethereum and so you get this like super low latency so with those being like the four components of the Ager what you find out there is that effectively what you can get with the Ager alone is some user facing content right theoretically what you could see is you could say somebody that says I just want um sub3 second sub 5c whatever we end up getting to transactions cross chain I can just do that directly on the a layer I don't need intents I don't need anything else so I'll just do that directly on the there's things that we can do cool like for example we built this Library called bridge and call so this one's actually kind of neat because it actually makes

the user experience cross chain better than an L1 itself um we've been like super um I think uh not very creative in the El space like think of how you execute a transaction you you go to like the a interface and you borrow funds you then take those funds and then you go and you open up the the Unis swap interface um obviously by the way we have Alternatives I'm just giving you an example here right and you go ahead and you use those borrowed funds to deposit in a pool that's actually insane when you think about like why isn't it that we're not like opening our wallet and saying I want to um borrow funds on a and deposit them in a pool in Unis swab click you

are now approved multiple transactions across chains and that Stu this is what the brid and call library does um now it takes it further because it actually allows you to bridge across ethereum and in that same transaction execute multiple transactions across chains uh and so you actually end up into like a a thing that should I mean could easily exist on an L1 but doesn't really where you're executing multiple transactions in basically just one click um with a better user experience so that's another way that like I we will have wallets we're working very closely with um uh we just recently announced that Magic Wallet um is creating like an AG layer focused wallet as well as like a a roll up on on uh uh the AG layer along with with octo wallet which just side note download octo wallet I'm not even

kidding go try it it's like the craziest user experience in all of crypto that nobody knows about um literally like you talk about like chain abstraction like done um you don't even need to like you literally just say I want to send 10 usdc from this wallet to this wallet regardless of what where you have those funds done now this gets to like the next L right so like at this point what we've talked about is like okay the AG can be user facing but you're still going to have like relatively High l I mean 2 seconds is pretty good but like sometimes you're going to want like an even better user experience than that um and for example you're not going to be able to do something like uh flash loans and so let's say that is that because it's synchronous because it's asynchronous you won't be able to do

flash loans because you need to do it in the same block and so you need some some means of doing synchronous transactions and so that's where you get like one layer above as I picture it in like the shared sequencing land where you start saying like hey um we actually want synchronous transactions because we care to include multiple transactions in the same block that's not something the AG can do at all the AG can add security to that shared sequencer um but it can't actually provide that synchronous transaction right and so now you think of that and you're like okay that's another layer kind of closer to the user or or equivalent you could say um when it comes to synchronous transactions but again like most of the time users are going to um be interacting with that through something which will probably be

some sort of like wallet or like um front dend of some sort somewhere um and theoretically they could be interacting directly with that that shared sequencer in that way but then when you're not using a shared sequencer you're basically like okay I still want a really smooth experience that is really fast and I'm willing to pay more than what I would pay for like a transaction the AG because I really want it to feel like it happens in like less than a second um and that's where like intents start coming into play um and at that point in time like you can think of the intense as as basically having funds on one chain and on one another chain and given that there's funds on both you can execute that transaction like like basically immediately because there's funds on both both chains again more expensive so if you can avoid doing that

because you don't need you know more less than 5 Seconds Lany or whatever it is um then you would go ahead and you would use that if you did or you would use the agare if you don't actually need that if you do need a FAS transaction then you would just rely on the intents and so like I kind of like view it as like moving up the stack based on like what you need but like I I think the thing we're just not imagining well enough is like what that holistically looks like um the wallet experience that it might look like like we really like and who's building that out in terms of like and this is where we're spending like a lot of time it's like we want the infrastructure that creates the best user experience the one to understand how to embed the concept of like bag

itself shared sequencers intents and anything else and like bring it all together into one and we just need like frankly a lot of people working on that yeah absolutely I I mean you do a really good job of painting that picture and I think one thing thing that we're starting to to hear and feel and and and develop is this app Centric view where these are the the applications are the ones with the distribution to the end end end user we saw that with poly market and so they own that end user relationship and um the reason that they do is because they have the brands that are recognizable and the brands that are trusted by people and and uh people say hey you know what that sounds cool and that looks cool I want to go try that

and they log on to the app right and so we want to abstract away all of the complexity of uh the wallet the interop all of that is going to end up underneath the hood whereas right now as power users we're we're looking at this and we're using it on a day-to-day basis and we're like it works why do we need trade abstraction well it's not for us it's for everyone else who we're trying to get into the ecosystem as new users new sources of liquidity so this is by the way a really good point because I say it all the time I'm like I don't get a problem with the user experience here it's fine and then people are like what world do you live in like no it's not and they're right right like it's it's not it's I got so used to this that it's like

normal to me to like have to wait and like have a failed transaction sometimes on some chain or like actually wait longer so that I don't risk that it's like that's not normal yeah and and so you know once we I I think it is hard to imagine a bit because it's not something that we're going to see see it's not something that's visual it's something that's going to live underneath the applic and so we can think about it we can have mental models for it but ultimately end users don't need to really see this because it'll be happening for them underneath the Hood um and then things like you know agay is something where I I think you know a general theme uh amongst this conference and just in general that we've seen is that ZK is eating the world it everything is moving

in that in this direction um it is the endgame ZK is here and agay is helping to Z ZK ify everything and so you know I you know ethereum kind of announced their like you know consensus layer sort of proposal and it's basically to take ethereum in this ZK Direction and so I'm just generally curious like you know if you have thoughts on that if you have General thoughts on ZK like how does how is AG pushing forward uh ZK movement that I think a lot of the web 3 ecosystem is getting behind AG is playing a really significant role in that and so as you kind of look at the rest of these ZK uh uh solutions that are getting built across the ecosystem how

can we like take those all into account and use them to power this abstracted abcentric experience that I think all of us can kind imagine in our head but we haven't seen in real life yet yeah I I mean I think like I think we're further away than people actually think and the reason is because the lack of trust that people have in ZK Tech because it's not mature and by the way I see this all the time when I'm talking to team and I'm saying hey like come build over here there's execution proofs everybody knows it's the future this and that and they're like oh but it's not as mature as optimistic rollups um and you get this like all I like I hear this all the time and I'm just like okay but like uh almost all optimistic rollups have a

fraud prooof system that's like less than a year old by the way like they're even even arbit drums has like a new Pro proof system right like optimism literally just launched there's like they're completely immature actually um and so I I think there's this like idea that like ZK is not mature enough and we need to like overcome that like hump um even though people know it's the future and then second is like this idea that like ZK is just like too expensive I mean we right now can execute like on a transaction like a proof is going to cost like um even on our most on our more expensive pro we're at like basically 0.007 a transaction like that's like adds nothing um and so to me we're

already at the point where it's like cheap enough but people have not recognized that so that's like to me like the second hump that we need to get over is people recognizing that like we are at a point where like trust in ZK proofs is high enough should be high enough the cost of ZK proofs are high enough that we should start seeing where we can embed them like everywhere and step one to me is like just execution proofs on every chain but like if we can't even get there to me looking at like where else we can embed execution proofs I mean ZK proofs is like a big like uphill battle um and I think it's going to take honestly like arbitrum and optimism like moving to ZK proofs to like actually get people to to

understand that and the funny thing is like uh again like people forget like polygon's not the same that it was we like literally want to help them cuz for us more chains that have execution proofs better experience on the layer like we we want it so like we've seen like uh op succinct right this is like uh the uh op stack where cinct brought uh sp1 on it and so you actually have the op stack that has execution proofs now we love that because all we say is like hey you want to use op stack with execution proofs you can do that and connect it to the a layer um and and then same thing will happen eventually with orbit and this is just like a win for the entire ecosystem it's good for the Ager as well um and so to me that's like the starting point and then what's

really quickly going to happen as well is I think as more chains get connected to the Ag More chains start getting more transactions start getting executed cross chain you start building like a huge amount of trust um and so at that point you start overcoming this idea of like it's too expensive and it's not trustworthy when you've got you know hundreds of chains initially that are going to be executing cross chain transactions without any problem um and once that confidence gets buil up that's when it snowballs into like different areas yeah and that's the shelling point that we talked about where you know at at there are network effects that start to build and they're not just technical Network effects or or incentives that start to uh acrew uh there there is an air an air of confidence that starts to build um around around these shelling

points um and you mentioned uh ops1 uh and op is sync and and for anyone uh that's listening uh our last podcast that we did with uh Brendan about AG uh was with Brendan and Uma and there's a tight uh coupling between uh Ag and sp1 as well well and and so uh for anyone you know that that was a great podcast and encourage people to check that one out proofs that we actually use theet pessimistic proof actually uses sp1 which is created using plony 3 which is what polygon created as like the base layer of like most ZK proof so it's kind of like honestly it's fun to see how open source is so exponential um we've debated that to be like look everything we do at at polygon

has always been open source but like honestly do we have conversations on like hey should everything that we do be open source yeah and we always win out in favor of like it's the right thing and like one key thing actually was like plunky 3 we we actually talked about this was like Hey like everyone's going to use this we lose our ZK Advantage if everyone uses it we shouldn't do that and then the same thing that always happens with all open source which is we made it open source and it's getting broadly adopted and frankly it's just getting better and and and provs are just getting better because of it and it like accelerated the adoption of ZK which is frankly exactly what we want for the AG in general and everybody's better off and so like the lesson in

there is like open source always win yeah Kudos kudos to you guys for open sourcing that I mean generally if if something's a good idea like it it'll get adopted no matter what and so you know you guys put that out there um awesome I mean this is this has been a blast like I think we've talked about so much and you know polygon sort of sometimes gets uh gets critiqued as being like this monog like this like a nog just can't really put your finger on it it's like this conglomeration of a bunch of different stuff um a lot of good stuff but like maybe you can help just like bring all of this together help wrap us up like what in a nutshell like polygon yeah polygon's a core contributor to the agair we want to grow

the agair so that all of web 3 can be as big as the internet in a seamless way the other way that I put it the other day on like a podcast that like the EF was was running was I said something like our North Star on interoperability and I was not referring to just ethereum but all of web 3 should simply be that you want it to feel like one L1 but scale like millions of l1s um and so that's like ultimately the goal that that we have with like the agare and when you think of everything else that we do it's just adding to it POS is adding users to the a layer polyon zkm will add liquidity to the a layer and then like the thousands of other chains will benefit from all of that um and

it's really the easiest way to think of polyon you just got aggregated I love it that was perfect cool thanks man cool