Abuse and Ethical Lapses: What Happened When Justin Sun Acquired BitTorrent - Ep.146

Transcript

Hi everyone. Welcome to Unconfirmed, the show that reveals how the market names in crypto are reacting to the week's top headlines and gives the inside scoop on what they see on the horizon. I'm your host, Laura Shin, a journalist with over two decades of experience. I started covering crypto five years ago and as a senior editor at Forbes was the first mainstream media reporter to cover cryptocurrency full-time. Unchained and Unconfirmed are now published as videos. If you're not yet subscribed to the Unchained YouTube channel, head to youtube.com/c/unchainedpodcast and subscribe today.

Crypto.com, the crypto super app that lets you buy, earn, and spend crypto. Earn up to 8.5% per year on your Bitcoin. Download the Crypto.com app now. Today's guest is Chris Harland-Dunaway. Welcome Chris. Thanks for having me, Laura. You recently wrote an epic article called "Hype Man of the Century" for The Verge. And it was about Justin Sun, the founder and CEO of Tron. Tell us what that story is about. The story is about how he basically came to America in in some ways, to put it short.

He acquired this company that's very famous in the US and so Silicon Valley, BitTorrent. And through that acquisition sought to sort of expand his empire by adding new features that could help promote his cryptocurrencies. And um so the story is really about his acquisition and how he suddenly straddled this difficult relationship between the US and China. And um how in some ways the decisions he made flew in the face of, you know, what I suppose you could say seasoned businessmen would

decide to do in those cases. So he pursued ethically and legally dubious software projects and the workplace in the United States in San Francisco changed dramatically. And so, the story is told through 18 current and former employees, um, who spoke to me, uh, only if I wouldn't use their names in the story. None of them sought to, uh, uh, none of them wanted to face retaliation from a Uber millionaire like Justin Sun. Um, so, we agreed. Uh, one of the sources, however, is on the record in the story. And, uh, I'll I reached out to Justin Sun to try to

interview him uh, twice and also sent him a long list of detailed questions based on the allegations and observations of all the people who talked to me for the story. And, um, the product is this, uh, narrative that takes you through this wild ride inside of Tron when Justin Sun came to San Francisco. So, let's talk a little bit more about Sun and let's go into his background a little bit just so people get a sense of where he came from. What was his upbringing and how did he come to become a millionaire?

Well, he was born in Qinghai, which is a province in China and, uh, it's not a super well-known, uh, province. Uh, he moved around a bit when he was a kid. He, uh, among other things went to a, uh, academy for studying Go, the, um, it's like a combination between chess and checkers. It's a pretty complicated game. Um, and he he says in his autobiography, which is called Brave New World or Brave New World, uh, that he wanted to be a Go master. And his parents essentially said, "Well, look, if you're going to go do this, you got to commit. Like, you can't, you know, back out of this." And so, he was thrust into this world of Go

in in the city of Wuhan. There's a famous essay writing contest in China that is sort of a a way you can get into some of the most prestigious colleges there. And he wrote this essay that captured the attention of of the judges and helped him get into prestigious college. And so, um he he, however, was by his own admission not a great student. He was he played a lot of video games and stuff and uh went to college and then went to do a graduate program at Penn State in the States in East Asia studies. And it was there um that he was an early investor in

Bitcoin. And according to him or and according to the lore uh and legend on the internet, invested a significant portion of his tuition in Bitcoin and made a lot of money and then uh began trying to hatch ideas for various tech projects. Among them was Paywall, which was sort of his big hit that uh had 10 million registered users and um was a sort of a mashup of um Tinder and also live stream chat rooms. And it was all audio-based. That's what was sort of different and unusual. It wasn't really

a visual app. That said, it it eventually edged into the territory of this sort of uh I suppose you could say audio pornography and in in the long run was shut down by the Chinese authorities for quote disrupting uh socialist values. That app was among many that were shut down for those reasons. But uh he made quite a bit of money off of that, and he got involved in Ripple among others, and he made money quite quickly, quite early on, and um made his foray into cryptocurrency after that.

Yeah, so tell us how he got his start there and then came to acquire BitTorrent, and also what began happening after he acquired this peer-to-peer file-sharing company. Well, uh his first successful currency was TRX, and the initial coin offering for that made him, but according to what he told others, extremely, extremely wealthy. Uh he's said to an employee for 1 day he was richer than Bill Gates. Do I have the financial documents to back that up? No. I mean, it's what he said to someone. People were I mean, took some of the stuff he said with a grain of salt, but there was no doubt that people at the company to this day believe he could be a billionaire. Uh he

says he's a multimillionaire. He told Bloomberg that. But, in any case, that initial coin offering just made him so rich, and he sort of wanted to build on that. In the midst of this, attended this university seminar created by Jack Ma, a business seminar, and he'd graduated from that. And this is a big part of his personal story is meeting Jack Ma, and sort of being um mentored by Jack Ma. He sort of builds an image of himself as a protege of Jack Ma.

But, in any case, part of his his his thesis for uh his thesis he wrote for that seminar, uh I believe, uh was about decentralized blockchain technology. And so, that was where his head was at, where he was heading um when he made all this money with with TRX. And so, BitTorrent, meanwhile, across the pond in San Francisco, was doing okay. They were having trouble making uh good revenue, and uh to some it looked the company looked like a distressed asset. To others, it was just sort of, you know, stagnant.

And so, he saw something ripe to purchase, and BitTorrent came with a bunch of decentralized technology, which was right up his alley, and that's how that um purchase happened. And so, you alluded that to this in the beginning, but there were definitely some differences in the way that Sun um and his employees uh interacted with each other in the US versus in China. What were some of those differences, and in general, what were some of the changes that happened in the BitTorrent office once Sun acquired BitTorrent?

Well, just from a person-to-person interaction thing, if you were in the office, and you were Chinese, you knew Mandarin, you grew up in China, or, you know, even if you spent a lot of time living in the US, Sun would uh expect you to call him Sun Zong, which means sort of, you know, Mr. Sun, Boss Sun. It's a much more formal thing. And uh meanwhile, you know, the American employees who had lived in San Francisco or wherever their entire life, they'd just be like, "Oh, hey, Justin. What's up?" And so, uh right there, there was a difference in how people were treated, and um uh Chinese employees uh were scared of him. So, the fear that he inspired him

in employees began as just sort of like high expectations. He sort of saw himself as a uh a famous person. He would um he rarely smiled when he was, you know, walking around the uh office, and he projected a sort of aura of being up on a uh a pedestal, I suppose. Took lunches alone in his room on a tray. Um At as it started, employees were sort of curious about him. They didn't view him as threatening.

Um but a big turning point in that came when uh finally Tron, the senior employees in in Beijing, and Justin were going to do a big Q&A, a town hall Q&A. Uh and questions were submitted anonymously. Um and you know, this is pretty This is a thing that is done quite uh broadly in Silicon Valley. It's, you know, this idea of putting tough questions to the leadership, uh testing their vision. And so, those are the sorts of questions that showed up in the Q&A. And before the Q&A, Sun asked to have a meeting where he could see the

questions beforehand. I was told that part of that was to censor them. But, in any case, he began reading them. And some of the questions were, you know, these existential questions I'm talking about. And one was, "What if TRX drops to zero? What happens to the company?" And he immediately loses it and throws a tantrum and uh says, "We're going to find out who wrote this. We're going to hunt them down. Like, I want to know who wrote this. And I want to kill their entire family." And people who understood what was being said, because he was saying this in Mandarin, uh were taken aback. But, this is what began to really characterize how he

treated employees. A couple I spoke to had been threatened in their own way. The The screaming, you know, tantrums, this sort of thing continued on and on and on. And uh there whenever there was a big PR setback for his business, uh he would he would go into these dark moods and um lash out and at employees and uh eventually it led to actual physical violence in the office. Well, so in a moment we're going to discuss more about that plus also some major ethical lapses at the company, but first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible.

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Well uh one of uh Sun's main deputies was this guy is was this guy Song Lee and um for I was able to piece together Song Lee's story about his relationship with Sun by talking to all these employees and what I learned is that early on because he was willing to toler- tolerate Sun's extremely high demands, he became uh sort of insider, close in the inner circle. Basically uh he was always, you know, at at Justin's beck and call and always within reach of Justin. And so, I'm sure many people who listen to this content podcast are uh familiar with the win a

Tesla debacle where Sun tried to raffle off uh Teslas to Twitter followers and um it went very poorly and he He a meltdown over it. And one of these days, uh a a young software engineer named Lucas Yurechek came into the office and witnessed Sun coming out of his office in spitting rage and striking Songli. Songli was the first person, you know, nearby, and he was just in this fit of rage and he was screaming and he just pummeled the guy.

And uh Yurechek, who witnessed this, reported this to HR. And he was assured, you know, there won't be any retaliation, that kind of thing. But things went very differently from got very strange for him very quickly when he tried to report uh and hold Sun accountable for what he had done. In addition, you also detail a number of major ethical lapses at the company stemming not from the employees, but from Sun himself. One of the first was around an app store on the Tron network.

Another was around piracy on this BitTorrent project called BT Movie. There was yet another one around a streaming product called BT Live. When did you give us an overview of what happened with these projects? Sure. So, um the app store on the Tron network, essentially, you can come in as an independent developer and put your app on there and people will, you know, use it and cryptocurrency flows through it. Um and uh but the thing is Tron doesn't really know much information about any of these developers. And so, as one employee told me, these developers would get on the blockchain and scam all day, 24/7. There was no accountability. They had no way

to reach these people. But they did hear from the people who were getting scammed. And they would write in with messages, DMs on Twitter, just trying to reach the company every which way. Uh even Better Business Bureau complaints showed up at the office. People were really trying to get some accountability for these developers who were running scams. And and Sun was aware of this. He attended weekly meetings where this was I mean his style was he expected a report card from essentially everyone who was at the meeting. And so he was constantly apprised of what was happening on the blockchain. He decided not to to address it.

Um when it comes to other products that I mean the two big products I write about that he had a vision for were BT Movie and BT Live. BT Movie was going to basically decentralize movie sharing and use the BitTorrent protocol to do that. And one source explained to me that once something is seeded out there amongst in peer-to-peer sharing world, it's very difficult to root it out. So, if a Hollywood movie ends up on this platform, good luck trying to take it down. I mean it's out there now. So, that that was one of the worries, but the other worry

was that I mean if if really gnarly stuff ended up on BT Movie, they wouldn't be able to take it down. If it was terrorist content, if it was, you know, child abuse imagery, they wouldn't be able to take it down. And employees pushed very hard to get some type of moderation introduced. Among them was this young software engineer I told you about Lucas Yuraschek. And um nonetheless, the product went ahead. Uh Yuraschek discovered it had actually gone completely live. It was operational. He went and took a look at it and he saw just a long list of Hollywood movies already, you know, out there

being pirated essentially. And you know, the line that BitTorrent had maintained for a long time is we provide a technology. We have nothing to do with the content uh that's on on this platform. But here's the thing. Yurteseven went into the source code. This is available on GitHub. You can go look at it yourself. And uh saw the the Tron wallet identifiers for people who were altering the code, the the admins of the code. And he discovered that people had put uh you know, it's an Let me back up. It's an altruistic platform in some sense. You get tips for sharing these movies.

Well, in the code it shows that someone takes 20% of the tips. Well, Tron takes 20% of the tips. No question about that. All the users who upload the torrent so you can access the movie wherever it is, on whatever server, get 80% of the tips. Okay? Well, Yurteseven, being an insider of the company, knows the unique identifiers for those Tron wallets that are modifying the code. And he told me that these were employees who were uploading the torrents that would allow you to download pirated content.

And so, essentially, Tron was taking 100% of the revenue on the sharing for that. So, that was BT Movie. Uh this I mean, uh Yurteseven basically got fired as a result of his opposition to this this project. He filed an IC3 complaint uh to the FBI on his way home from work one day uh when he was on, you know, Caltrain going back to, you know, down near San Jose. And so, um that was BT Movie. And it, you know, it flies right against the United States chief objection in the trade war. They're all about stopping intellectual property theft. FBI

Director Chris Wray said this requires a whole-of-society response to try to stop. Uh yet here was Sun, you know, with in in San Francisco doing precisely that. Uh the other project he was simultaneously pursuing was, like you said, BT Live. Now this was an interesting app. Uh the idea at the outset was just to do something that was like a uh streaming app, you know? And people were puzzled. The product team was puzzled. They were like, "Well, why would we do that? There's FaceTime. There's Skype. You can do all sorts of thing. There's Zoom, you know? What's what's the market for this?"

And then uh the order came down to decentralize it. And they the the engineers and everyone were like, "Oh, that's really interesting. Decentralizing this uh live streaming app. Okay. Well, that would have been cool if we had that during the Arab Spring because Syria, for example, turned off the the internet to try to shut down activist broadcasting massacres of protests, you know, by the regime there. So um they actually got quite excited about this product. But as they as they went on working on it, it would use it would use uh the BitTorrent protocol.

Uh basically it would use all the users uh who have it to support the network that would do the streaming. And uh they began to get concerned, well, like, you know, "What if someone starts streaming themselves murdering someone?" "What are we going to do about that?" And an employee named Richard Hall, this brash British expat who's a Silicon Valley veteran, went to India to research Bigo Live, which is sort of like what Sun wanted to mimic for BT Live. And they discovered that the people who were on the network streaming to get the audience going were enduring just torrents of lewd remarks from users. And so he came back and broached

this idea that they needed to moderate BT Live. There has to be some way that we can, you know, either prevent terrorist content, you know, from being live streamed. We don't want ISIS in Syria or Iraq to, you know, live stream beheadings or something, and, you know, we also want to protect the streamers. And so they pushed Sun really hard to try to uh moderate the platform. And they had a tool set. They said it would be cheap to hire an office full of moderators in India to take stuff down. They had some automated tool sets that would automatically recognize things like, you know, a gun in a picture and take the stream down. So there were ways to try to moderate this thing.

Sun wasn't just uninterested in that. He opposed moderation 100%. And no one really knew where he was going with this. Uh why would he oppose moderation so strongly, ferociously even? And then one day he walked into a meeting and he sat down, and, you know, he's listening to everyone, and he said something in Mandarin, and most of the product team and, you know, all the designers and everyone in the San Francisco office, they just don't know what he said. But then, shortly after, one of the main guys in the team, this guy Oscar Co, just quits.

Up and quits. And people are puzzled. One employee reached out, was, "Hey Oscar, why'd you quit?" And he goes, "Talk to me offline." And they have this conversation. Turns out Oscar knows Mandarin, and he kept it a secret. And so he when Justin came in and said this thing that no one understood, what he was really saying was what his true vision for BT Live was. Uh he essentially wanted to bring the dark web into the light. He wanted all of the things that you can't access on the on the web that are censored, that are taken down, that are extreme to be

available to everyone. Not only that, he wanted I mean, BT Live would easily, because of the um BitTorrent protocol, peer-to-peer sharing, the way it was designed, it would be able to, in theory, for sure, subvert the Great Firewall in China. And so, as one source explained to me, "Wow, I mean, these people will be able to talk about Tiananmen Square without being censored." But also everything else, all the worst of the internet, the Pandora's Box, as he described it, would be open in China.

And everyone would use TRX to buy in and use this product. And so, Sun saw this as a way to get quite wealthy by bringing all the stuff that's been forbidden to a place where you can't access that. And um when the team found that out, they pretty much went into full mutiny, and Sun wanted to transfer the whole project to uh Beijing, to China. That he has a There are a couple offices in China, but he wanted to hand it off to uh the office that he saw as more pliant and more willing to fulfill uh his goals.

Interesting. Yeah, there's uh just so much in your article. You also detail um all the shenanigans that went down behind the scenes around the Warren Buffett launch, and you uh um yeah, just also end with how a couple employees are actually eventually sued Justin Sun. Um but, you know, we're running out of time, so why don't you just maybe say, you know, from your investigation, what your overall takeaway is about Justin Sun? From what everyone told me, this is a man who lacks fundamental empathy. And that is one of the biggest uh weaknesses he has as a businessman and as a tech entrepreneur.

He's not able to see or he ignores the negative potential consequences of the technology he builds. And while he is has he channels the entrepreneurial mindset of trying to be disruptive, he doesn't think about what the human cost is of the stuff he wants to make into a reality. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on Unconfirmed. Thank you very much, Laura. Don't forget, next up is the weekly news recap.

Hi everyone. Thanks for tuning in to this week's news recap. First headline, Square purchases $50 million in Bitcoin. Jack Dorsey's Square has become the second publicly listed company to invest in Bitcoin, purchasing 4,709 Bitcoin for a total of $50 million. The move follows MicroStrategy's announcement in August that the company had allocated 90% of its assets to the cryptocurrency. Square said in its statement that, quote, "Cryptocurrency is an instrument of economic empowerment and provides a way to participate in a global monetary system, which aligns with the company's purpose." Square's CFO, Amrita Ahuja, said, almost in a side-eye moment at

Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong, quote, "For a company that is building products based on a more inclusive future, this investment is a step on that journey." Square also published a Bitcoin investment white paper in which it open-sourced the process behind its purchase to help others considering doing something similar. In it, the company describes using an over-the-counter Bitcoin liquidity provider so as to maintain privacy and not have the price slip with its large trade. It also points to an open source documentation for its Bitcoin cold storage and explains its crime insurance policy among other things.

These investments in Bitcoin by two publicly traded companies come at a time when a traditional 60/40 portfolio is in jeopardy of not providing sufficient returns, writes Steve Ehrlich, the new director of research at Forbes Crypto. However, he says Bitcoin may increasingly help diversify portfolios, especially as he says, He notes the 180-day volatility reached a 23-month low and quote, "Says it has been a record 74 days since Bitcoin closed below $10,000."

He notes this is especially impressive considering these feats occurred despite the bad news of the third largest crypto exchange hack in history and the indictment of the executives of top derivatives exchange BitMEX. Next headline. Leadership changes at as BitMEX battles fallout from charges. BitMEX CEO Arthur Hayes and three other defendants named in lawsuits by the Commodities Futures Trading Commission and the US Department of Justice have stepped away from their executive roles at crypto derivatives exchange BitMEX. Vivian Khoo, chief operating officer of 100x Group, the parent company of BitMEX, has been made interim CEO.

Despite an exodus of nearly 30% of all Bitcoin on the exchange and a high risk warning issued by Chainalysis, a spokesperson for BitMEX insists that quote, "It is business as usual for the BitMEX platform." CoinDesk reports the exchange's own insurance funds remains the largest such fund of any cryptocurrency derivatives exchange. Nonetheless, future and historical transfers from BitMEX will now trigger alerts in the Chainalysis transaction monitoring tool, KYT. Concerning the warning, Chainalysis said, "quote We consider an entity to be high risk if criminal charges have been brought against the entity or its owners {slash} operators {slash} leadership."

The high-risk label by Chainalysis has been called a death knell for the exchange. Since charges were brought against BitMEX, more than 41,000 Bitcoin has been withdrawn from BitMEX. Nearly half of that BTC has migrated to Binance, with the rest moving mostly to Gemini and a smaller amount to Kraken, which disclosure is a previous sponsor of my show. Delphi Digital partner, Jose Maria Macedo, made an interesting assertion about what the BitMEX charges could mean for crypto in a Twitter thread. Macedo suggests that while historically anonymous teams in crypto are viewed as a risk, he says that now identity is an attack vector, and that the future lies in embracing decentralization and

pseudonymous on-chain reputation without relying on the legal system and social capital. Next headline. 60 employees have taken Coinbase's severance package so far. In a blog post published Thursday, Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong revealed that 5% of Coinbase's 1,200 employees has so far accepted the severance package offered to those who disagreed with its recently updated mission statement that Coinbase was an apolitical company. Although the deadline to take the severance was Wednesday, Armstrong said the number would be higher after the company completes several other conversations. He wrote, "quote It was reassuring to see that people from underrepresented groups at Coinbase have

not taken the exit package in numbers disproportionate to the overall population." An employee told CoinDesk that those choosing to leave are mainly engineers as opposed to customer support staff. Armstrong attempted to clarify that the company's new stance does not mean employees have to quote pretend politics doesn't exist. Still, it remains unclear to many inside the company what counts as political versus a political. Armstrong admitted that what could could be considered as politics is a blurry line.

Jill Carlson, an investor at Slow Ventures, wrote in a CoinDesk column that the real message Armstrong is sending is quote, "If you want to push a progressive social agenda in the workplace, this company is not for you." Next headline. Not Ethereum 2.0, but Ethereum 1.5? In a post on the Fellowship of Ethereum Magicians forum, Ethereum creator Vitalik Buterin noted that Ethereum may scale in an unexpected way. According to the Ethereum 2.0 roadmap, scaling for applications is still years away.

However, scaling is already in testnet for a number of layer two scaling options, such as rollups, plasma, and state channels, making those a more viable near and mid-term solution. This leads him to say that some popular apps use data and applications live entirely on layer one, such as the Ethereum Name Service, should be adapted to have their data, such as accounts, balances, and assets move to layer two. His conclusion is that if everyone moves to rollups, then that makes phase two of the transition to Ethereum 2.0 obsolete.

And so Ethereum may instead be a quote single high single high security execution shard that everyone processes, plus a scalable data availability layer. He writes quote, "This implies a phase 1.5 and done approach to ETH 2." As quote, "By that point, it will be easier to continue down that path than to try to bring everyone back to the base chain for no clear benefit and a 20 to 100x reduction in scalability." Whether or not Ethereum goes this path remains to be seen. But one other interesting comment he made in his somewhat technical post is that focusing on rollups will leave more space for layer two protocols that can fund their

own development with their own tokens. Next headline. DOJ publishes cryptocurrency enforcement framework. On Thursday, the Department of Justice published an 83-page cryptocurrency enforcement framework detailing how it looks at cryptocurrency crimes, DeFi, and its enforcement strategies. It categorizes illicit uses of crypto three ways as one, financial transactions that commission crimes, two, money laundering and shielding transactions from tax reporting and other legal legal obligations, and three, hacks or theft of cryptocurrency, particularly at exchanges.

The agency indicated it also has its eye on DeFi, saying, quote, "The ICO boom from a few years ago has given way to the exponential growth of decentralized finance markets in recent month months with all the associated complexities and difficulties for enforcers seeking to stay ahead of the curve and keep investors safe." Next headline. What the future may hold for crypto market structure. Arjun Balaji of Paradigm wrote an overview of the past and future of crypto market structure, recounting the 1.0 phase from 2010 to 2017 in which peer-to-peer trading emerged on Bitcoin Talk, Mount temporarily reigned, and OTC desks launched to serve some early

institutional investors. He then covers how phase 2.0 from 2018 to now has seen derivatives eclipse spot trading, OTC desks go electronic, lending firms firms emerge to provide $2 billion of Bitcoin and stablecoins on loan, and stablecoins function as reserve assets. He then says that we're already in the early stages of moving to phase 3.0, which he believes will be more capital efficient, bridging centralized markets with the ever-growing number of DeFi markets. He says that DeFi is disrupting centralized exchanges, but that throughput and high gas fees remain barriers to full-blown DeFi adoption.

He believes that as layer two solutions come to fruition, we can expect to see the convergence of decentralized and centralized finance. This intersection of DeFi and CeFi will result in better DeFi interfaces, institutional support, and an attempt by major centralized exchanges to capitalize on C DeFi or centralized decentralized finance. Next headline. The growth in DeFi in charts. The Block Research has compiled 37 different charts that analyze various metrics across DeFi projects.

The total value locked has now surpassed 11 billion dollars with the three largest protocols by value locked being, in order, Uniswap, MakerDAO, and Aave. And on average, around 4,000 new addresses interact with DeFi protocols every day. Although many users have multiple addresses, the trend towards DeFi is growing with total DEX volumes in September passing 23 billion dollars, which is a 74% increase over the previous 30-day period. For the first time, the most popular DEX, Uniswap, surpassed Coinbase in trading volume.

One standout among the graphs was the surge in the trading volume of NFTs or non-fungible tokens such as collectibles, with Rarible showing the most consistent volume as new platforms are continuing to be launched. Fun bits. Live premiere of new documentary Crypto Startup School. As of this writing, we've only had a chance to view the enticing trailer, but Thursday night Andreessen Horowitz presented the new documentary Crypto Startup School. The film follows the 7-week program of the same name announced earlier this year.

During the program, experts in the crypto field offered talented technologists assistance in building crypto companies. By the time this video is live, the 30 the well, the video that I'm recording is live, the 30-minute behind-the-scenes look at the program should be available to view on a16z's YouTube page. All right. Well, thanks for tuning in. To learn more about Chris and Justin Sun, be sure to check out the links in the show notes of this episode. Don't forget you can now watch video recordings of the show on the Unchained YouTube channel. Go to youtube.com/c/unchainedpodcast and subscribe today.

Unconfirmed is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Anthony Yoon, Daniel Ness, Bossy Baker, Shashank Venkat, and the team at CLK Transcription. Thanks for listening.