Aave Defeats SEC, Token vs. Equity, Lark Davis, Dynamix, Threshold

Transcript

[music] [music] How the [ __ ] [music] [music] I'm about the [music] >> [music]

[music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. [music] It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. [music] You said it. You finally said it. So, boys, I'm bullish. We're boys. [music] [music] [music]

>> [music] >> I'm the mother. [music] [music] [music] I'm the mother. [music] [music] H above the [music]

[music] >> [music] [music] >> Corola is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys. [applause] >> Boom, boom, bang. It is Tuesday, December 16th. I'm in my Christmas coat.

We got a banger stream today. We got our first guest, Lark Davis ready to go. Uh he is one of the biggest YouTubers in crypto and educator that I feel like many of us who first got our start in the 2017 2018 2019 era like myself saw. Um and yeah, a lot to talk about. I mean namely I mean everyone wants to hear about the market but I think that content isn't as differentiated as some of the stuff that I want to talk about. token versus equity dynamics are super interesting right now and a very hot topic. This kind of like metadow token holders uh conversation is very interesting. I think this app token layer uh conversation is going to be interesting. Curious to hear what Lark has to say about the markets as well and just generally what he's seeing out

there. So guys, we're going to start real quick with our first guest, Lark. We'll come back to to some of these tweets and different news subjects uh later on in the show. You're watching Rollup TV. We will get Lark Davis up here in just a sec uh and get this party started. Lark, welcome to the show, man. >> Good to see you. Thanks for having me on. >> I'm I'm digging the haircut, man. It's a fresh fade. It's a holiday fade, >> man. Putting yourself out there on camera every day. As we know, it requires a certain level of uh of of self-care as well of uh of as well as self um self-belief. You know what I I think I went crazy a long time ago to be honest. It's it's been over for a while.

[laughter] Well, man, thanks for thanks for joining. Longtime uh listener of the show, man. Lark Davis in the house. We got a lot to talk about and I was talking about that token versus equity dynamic. We got market dynamics. We've got institutional dynamics. I'd like to just give you a bit of a bit of context as to how I'm seeing things and and I'm super curious your opinion. So we're we've kind of started this contractionary phase within the cryptonative ecosystem. So cryptonative companies protocols projects investors, speculators, we're kind of going through this like um return to reality, this kind of trimming of the fat, this revenue, uh this return to fundamentals, this token holder equity

dynamic, all these things, you know, what is your buyback schedule? Who's what is the demand side for this thing? there's this very like contractionary almost like coming to the senses of of like this maturation phase within the cryptonative space. So I kind of view it as like contractionary. Then in the institutional kind of realm, it's this massive expansionary regime. You've got just this absolutely diabolical desire for institutions to launch chains, launch stable coins, uh launch crypto products, uh come into the space, you know, treasury companies. And so you've got this like massive cognitive dissonance happening right now in the space where on a 10-year time horizon things have never looked better. But on the if you look at the best performing

asset of this year, Hyperlid, it's officially red on the year. And so this entire space is looking at and I think we're all like looking around either trying to figure out who to blame, what's going on, how to make sense of this. So Lark Davis, how do we make sense of this this juxiposition that we found? >> We got a lot to cover there. Um, we'll just start off with this. It's been a weird year. Essentially, the majority of altcoins have been in a bare market for the entirety of the year. A lot of them sort of had their price performance back in December, January. Many of them didn't even come close to getting to previous all-time highs. Even quote unquote good coins like chain link, for example, didn't even come close to getting back to previous highs. So, we had a lot of disenchantment. And it was

very interesting because it went from this financial nihilism which was what typified the end of last year where everything's [ __ ] and nothing has any value. And that was very much the meme coins, right? Memecoins are more honest about it. Yeah, they do nothing. It's just a picture of a cat or a goat or a dog or frog or whatever. Okay, very honest. Means nothing. Most were scams. Everybody went into know most of them were scams. Whereas you had on the other side all of these layer 1 tokens, layer 2 tokens, governance tokens for DeFi protocols which put on the theater of having some kind of value but were more valueless than the memecoins. I mean, who's going to go and govern this random DeFi platform? Nobody cares. And the

tricky part, as we've just seen with Axelar, Axelar just sold to a bigger company and so good for them. the equity holders just ate token holders. Sorry, bad news. Nobody cares because you have zero rights as a token holder. And this has been a part of the big problem, which is why the revenue meta popped up this year, which great, you have a token, there's doing buybacks. There's actually some kind of reason to hold the token to hope that it'll go up in the future because there's some kind of business model attached to it that's driving real value through buybacks or revenue shares or whatever it might be.

So people have gone through a big cycle of emotions with coins over the last year. And of course most of the altcoins have proven themselves to be virtually worthless. Maybe there's about a hundred investable assets across the crypto space. Quite a few speculatable assets obviously. But we've come through this weird phase where throughout 2025 most of the altcoins have been slaughtered. Okay, that's obvious. Everybody knows. Everybody's seen that. We've had a few weird areas of outperformance. We had Zcash go on its run, for example. Hyperlid go on its run. A few others had some interesting moves throughout the year. Bitcoin hit a new all-time high.

ETH hit a new all-time high, but barely. Bitcoin only by about 10K. ETH only by 100 bucks. And Salana didn't quite hit a new high in the rally this year. It came about $40 short. So, that was some of the biggest price action. We've had a very disappointing year for crypto. Meanwhile, people who have been disenchanted with crypto and become overly cynical with crypto, they're not coming back to play in the casino as much as they used to. No, they will when we get some green candles, don't get me wrong, but they've gone to other places. They've seen data center stocks go up 10, 20, 30, 40, 50x, all kinds of AI stock plays. So when you actually buy a share in a company, even if it's a quantum computing company that's kind of BS and might go bankrupt in a few years, at least you're playing a better game

than buying these literal scam tokens that are being launched in the market by VCs who only want to extract. And what happened to the days, can I just say what happened to the days, man, when you would have an ICO and you'd get it would come out at a 20, 30, 40, $50 million valuation. Everybody had a chance to eat, man. Now it's like, oh, 20 billion dollar fully diluted valuation on day one. Everybody's screwed. No one's gonna buy it. The only people who win are the VCs who funded the seed round at 10 million bucks. That's it. And >> I mean I mean and luckily we've actually seen some sort of return to this ICO idea. I mean we saw Aztec this past uh week or two. We've seen I think football.f fun has theirs today. Um but

but still that that like the core primitive of you know this equal opportunity playing field has been sort of taken away. How do you how do you reason about um the the kind of idea of maybe some of these tokens may not go to all-time highs in in in the future and perhaps they've seen their time in the sun. again kind of coming back to this like bifurcated outlook on the space, right? You've got, you know, you laid it you laid out the kind of lay of the land extremely well with regards to kind of how people are expecting the performance like for for people who are holding different crypto assets. You know, is there a framework that you've been using this year as to like how you want to manage your portfolio given the uh state

of the altcoin market? Like have you changed your views on like your portfolio management this year? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think you have to be forced to change in these kind of market conditions. One of the things for me is really just to there's a few altcoins I'm still holding as spot positions. It's probably not a great idea, but I'm still doing that. You know, something like Bitcoin or Salana, okay, fine. That's different. I don't mind the volatility. I can hold those. The other altcoins anyway, you know, it's not a good time. But for the most part, really, what's been rewarded over the last year, it's been chasing the trends. whatever the hot coin of the week or the month is where the hot money ball is going, you know, like Zcash. I faded when Nal Robbie Kant started chilling it was 80 bucks said ah

it's this old dino coin who cares wherever where the money's chasing doesn't matter what it does right so there's been a bit of that you need to be very very very rotational right now and here's the fact too the vast majority of these coins will not go back to all-time highs and they do not deserve to go back to alltime highs and we're not talking about random scam meme coins we're talking about stuff like polka dot Cardano I mean look maybe at some point they we get some crazy risk on season and Cardano for for some reason goes to all-time highs, but they don't deserve to. They're wildly overvalued at their current valuations. They have almost no users on chain. They have almost nobody using any products on their chain. There's almost no apps built on their chains. There's almost no stable coins built on their chain.

There's almost no daily perpetual volumes, swap volumes, anything. They're ghost towns. Absolute ghost towns. These things not they're worth multi-billion dollar valuations. So, there's a bit of healing of nature that needs to come in here. Whereas other things like Salana probably feels relatively undervalued. Why is Salana worth one/5if of Ethereum when it's beating on most metrics? So, there's areas of opportunity within the mispricings of some of these assets. And there's also areas of it doesn't make any sense and these coins really don't deserve to go back to new all-time highs. Maybe like Cardano does because it's kind of like a cult coin.

>> But a lot but a lot of these coins probably won't and they don't deserve to either. And there's there's a a question that investors have to look at themselves in the mirror and say, be honest with your asset, man. What you're holding, does it actually deserve to go back to new all-time high? You just have bag bias because you're underwater and you're hoping and praying that it goes back up. Sometimes just cutting that dead weight and moving on with your life can be the best thing you can do. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I totally hear you. And it's been it has been a year of um concentration being the strategy. I mean, you know, ever since I entered in 2017, the market always moved together.

And, you know, I remember DJ Spartan in 2020 was like, guys, um, diversification in crypto is the silliest idea because, uh, there are the whole market moves together for the most part and the winners are just they always, you know, if you can identify the winners, they outperform consistently. So, why not just hold a lot of your assets in like, you know, the the tokens that you want to own that you actually believe in. And I think that has continued to prove true. uh here this year. You know, I'm curious how you keep an optimistic outlook on the market, right? So, let's kind of flip towards this more institutional. I call it Wolf of Wall Street's esque tokenization bull run. I I was in New York a couple weeks back uh for SmartCon with Chain Link. It was

unreal. Uh it was an absolute, you know, it was wild. Now, Bitcoin was still 105K, but but it it was a pure it was pure mania mode and and it still is now to this day and will still, you know, it will still be. I'll spend a lot more time there next year. And so for a lot of us who are just in the kind of cryptosphere, we see that this kind of we see lack of of performance from our favorite tokens. But what we don't see is what's actually happening behind the scenes in these offices in these institutional spaces. Perhaps you can give us a bit more of the optimistic outlook here as to why you think that, you know, or why you could be led to believe that this is the best time, you know, to be in crypto for the long haul

given the the adoption. Or perhaps you don't feel that way. >> I do feel that way and it's been a very tough way to feel for some months now because we diverged from stock markets five, six months ago at this point where they kept running and crypto stalled out. Then we had 10 10 the big crash washed a lot of people out and we have not recovered from that. We are still seeing the ghosts of that event in the market charts every single day. So there's that to deal with. Then at the same time all this has been happening and there's been such an extreme amount of pesticism and cynicism in markets. We have had some of the biggest announcements possible from the market.

We have Vanguard getting into crypto >> year ago. They said never on our watch. They fired that CEO and said, "Get get get everybody into ETFs because Black Rockck's making so much money here. We need to get our clients in on this." So, we got Vanguard. >> Little late, guys. >> Yeah. But, you know, better late than never. They're late, but they're not late, right? Was that Tomly made a good point. There's only what, four million Bitcoin addresses, but there's >> 20 million people with uh IRA accounts or whatever. Yeah. $10,000. So, it's interesting. >> Um, so there's that. So we have definitely we are early to adoption for the mainstream for the trady money right it feels like we've gone a long way because we've seen so many big buyers come in the ETFs absorbed so much but

it's going to keep happening over time so we've had Vanguard we had Bank of America we had Charles Schwab we had a Mundi over in Europe which one of their biggest asset managers we've had all these really really big stories JP Morgan okay now it's just these crazy crazy stories that everybody's become totally numb to it >> I know right it's like if this happened in 2022, 2021, we'd be like, "What?" >> We'd be freaking out. But it's like it's like every week now. Every week there's like one of these like today was Visa stable coins on Salana. >> Heads would actually explode. Back in like 2017, if you told anybody that Black Rockck's going to launch an ETF and that Vanguard's going to come in and Fidelity is, people be like, "You're an idiot. Get out of here. It's never going to happen." Whereas here we are with

these things happening. And to an extent, we become numb to the good news. And that's very much a sign of bearish market conditions that all this good news and nobody cares. Prices just keep going down. People keep having a lack of faith. So look, we are going through a reckoning right now. It's been a very if this was the top, if 126K was the top, it's one of the weirdest tops ever for Bitcoin because it was the quietest top. I remember the day that we were at 126, I said, "This is a really weird top for Bitcoin or really weird new price high because the timeline's dead. I guess nobody owns Bitcoin anymore. Nobody cares. Like nobody's celebrating the fact that Bitcoin's 126K. Like normally you'd see, you know, all kinds of posts and stuff. Now obviously there was a few people posting, but it was very very

quiet because there was no altcoin season. People were not broadly making money. Most people were basically screwed. You had Bitcoin top barely, no altcoin season where we're also now heading into this weird situation where there's been no business cycle breakout because the US PMI manufacturing index has not broken out over 50 and sustained. We had a we had two months where was above 50 just barely back in uh January and February and then it fell back under 50. So there's been no breakout in the business cycle. Normally it takes about a bit year for the business cycle to actually reach its peak. Hasn't happened. Okay. So it's been a very weird cycle so far. Normally Bitcoin tops with the business cycle >> whereas this time Bitcoin topped without the business cycle.

>> If we topped and that's truly the peak of peaks and we go down to 40 50k by October next year which is really not even that far away guys in the grand scheme of things. But that's what Ben Cohen's calling for. >> A lot of people, the technicals would say, technicals would say, this is the thing. If you believe in the four-ear cycle, it simply all that has to happen is for 524 or 530 days need to pass after the Bitcoin having that just simply marks the top every time. Ignore the fact that it always topped with the business cycle. Ignore the top that it topped with the credit cycles. That none of that stuff matters apparently. Ignore the ignore the fact that in 2021 when Bitcoin topped, it partially topped because the Fed started talking about a tightening cycle and rate hikes and all

this stuff. None of that stuff matters because 524 days passed from the day of the Bitcoin having therefore it's all over and buy [laughter] Bitcoin 20K in a year. >> So, I'm getting the vibe that you're not a believer in the four-year cycle this time around. So, you know, this is another interesting kind of like I I keep using the word juxaposition where it's like technicals are saying rounded top dats, you know, you know, ran out of steam, uh markets topped on apathy, tough time, fundamentals and liquidity foes are suggesting rate cuts coming, uh QE starting, business cycle kind of hasn't even really started in this regime. Uh you could make an argument that 2026 is going to be the most stimulative monetary policy year since 2021. Uh just basically off off the last

five years of kind of a restrictive policy. But yet here we are and it sure looks like the this time is not different. >> No, that's the crazy thing. But ironically to argue that this time is not different is to argue that this time is different. That's the the tricky part about it. because well because of the things we just talked about. If you're arguing that this time is not different, well it's different because normally Bitcoin tops the business cycle. Again, we're just making basic argument that 524 days have passed since Bitcoin having therefore must top. Okay? And look, had 1010 not happened, we'd probably be in a very different place.

The market makers have been aggressively just wrecking the market every second that they get because they probably lost tens of billions on that day. I can only imagine. So, we have to deal with that. But there's a lot of reasons why you'd say, okay, well, this time is different because we didn't hit any of the top signals for Bitcoin. Like none of the on there's like 30 onchain indicators. Not a single one of them got hit as a topping signal. Okay, so this time is different except the 524 days passed, right? So then you have of course we've lost the 50WE, we've lost the 200 day, the monthly MACD is trending down like these are all bad things on the technicals and this is all screaming that we are currently in a bare market.

The question is what kind of bare market is it? And that may be the thing that actually tricks people. That may be where we find >> find out because this is the thing. Everyone's expecting it's going to be a year-long bare market. >> I don't think it's going to be. I think this bull market was so different. You have to assume that the bare market is also going to be different. [snorts] >> It would really mess a lot of people up if we had a three or fourmonth bare market. We didn't go much lower than like 75K for example or something like that. remains to be seen exactly how it's going to play out. If you just go with the traditional way of okay, fouryear cycle, x% draw down afterwards. None of that nothing else really matters. Then yeah, we're probably going to see Bitcoin bottom October next year at 40

to 50k around the somewhere around the 200 week, which is around 55k right now, maybe dip a little bit under. And that's basically it. Some simple process and then we try to run the four-ear cycle next time. Next time it doesn't work out. But but here's the thing is that the four-year cycle is a very interesting narrative, but the four-year cycle has been primarily driven by the liquidity flows, right? And so right now to argue that the four-year cycle should simply stay in play because it's always been in play. You're essentially arguing that >> you're fighting the Fed. Again, you want to talk about this time is different.

What's what's the grand rule in investing? Don't fight the Fed. Yeah. Everybody's saying, "No, no, I want to fight the Fed." They just ended QT and 10 days later instantly capitulated and started. It's not quantitative easing, it's reserve management. It's not QE, guys. It's reserve management. Okay, we're not going to use the two letters. But they're buying back $40 billion of Treasury bills a month. And the estimates from the big banks are that they're going to buy up to half a trillion dollar of T bills next year. That's massive stimulus. Massive. That's an environment where Bitcoin tends to thrive. Plus, you got a new Fed chair coming in. Trump's Trump's litmus test is will you put rates down to 1% yes or no basically.

>> Yeah. >> So you're fighting the Fed this is a new place to be. There's a bit of like there's a bit of patience required here, right? I think, you know, that the Fed chair is probably going to be elected, you know, in the next 60 days or so, 30 to 60 days. That should be a nice like boost for the market uh sentiment, but that won't actually take effect till May. >> The actual effects of the QE and and the rates, they probably won't really kick in till middle to end of next year. >> I don't know. It it's going to be very interesting to to kind of watch play out. I think we can speculate uh as we want. I think that the important thing is to make sure that for those listening, you've got your tax uh capital allocated for this year. You're

nice and cozy and you can weather whatever storm or you know, good times are ahead. So, L kind of shifting off of the market uh you know, speculation and just kind of where we're looking, I'd like to get your take on this uh token versus equity dynamic here. So, you mentioned Axelr, >> right? So let's just start with them as this example here but just this broad problem. Um and you know I'll I'll give some context in the in the tweet which is basically uh or a tweet that I saw. He's like I Grant from BlockMate said I think a major trend going forward will either be no token or tokenized equity.

Anything in between will be uninvestable. And so for those watching basically we had this regime with the SEC where you had to create a foundation and a labs company. The foundation was usually in the Cayman Islands and the labs was kind of wherever either in Switzerland, in the US, Singapore and basically the the labs was the development company for the foundation typically. Um, and so yeah, I mean I'm just curious your take on how how you see these companies uh playing out in the future, how you kind of think about this this transition because again it feels like the gig is up on the token plus equity dynamic. How do you think this changes over the next couple years

now that we're in a better regulatory regime? >> I think the market's told us quite clearly. The market's sick of it. They don't want to buy these overly inflated, useless governance tokens for VCs anymore. Back in 2021, you could throw money at basically anything and it would probably go up, okay? Especially hot new coins hitting the market. Now, it's just not been the case. The market's smartened up a bit to that reality. And therefore, people are not one to take these uh useless tokens anymore. Well, it's a utility token, a governance token. Yeah, why why don't I get some actual stake in this? Which is of course why the revenue meta has taken off with, you know, pump fun, hyperlquid, and all this kind of I know. What a crazy idea, right? Companies that actually make money.

>> I need to get some uh I need to get some uh revenue meta hats. [laughter] >> I think they're coming. I think I think they're coming. >> Yes. So, >> but I understand the frustration from investors. That's I've been in a lot of those deals and they've sucked. >> I mean, I our our angel our like fund angel portfolio is looking really rough to be honest. Um I think that goes for a lot of people. So, so okay, so the market is tired of this. Hyperlquid also helped to really push this forward where it was like all right guys, we're going to do things this way. Uh we're going to be buying back with 99% of our profits and you guys can figure the rest out.

Obviously they were uh highly rewarded this year. So what does this look like going forward then? You know let's say so Axel obviously got acquired by Circle leaving I think to be the the token holders in the dust completely. >> Completely. >> Um h >> so how are are app tokens even investable then? is if if you can just sell the sell the equity to and get bought out and the equity holders own all the equity which is likely the founders and any of the investors who did a safe plus a token warrant h how are what is the incentive to buy app tokens >> very thin it's a very thin incentive this is the thing you have maybe you take someone like a for example I would

be very very surprised if a sold out and left the token holders in the dust right so then you got to Okay, you got to trust somebody, right? You don't have any sort of legal representation in terms of a token holder. So, the only way forward really is to have better ICOs where when you buy a token, it gives you some kind of digital rights to the company as a shareholder. That's probably the only way it's going to make sense. And until we start getting more of that, a lot of altcoins are uninvestable. That's why I said there's maybe a 100 investable assets in crypto right now. And the 100 number might be generous. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean this dynamic it it's hard to overstate how much Fugazi Gary Gendler's regime forced on this space. So maybe we can flip that on its head. I just saw SEC chair Paul

Atkins will be speaking at digital assets uh digital asset summit in New York City this upcoming year. He's gone on and said that they're going to bring all markets onchain in the next two years. Larry Frink is saying tokenize everything. So it it remains more and more clear that the big investable category right now is this tokenization RWA category. The issue here though, Lark, is people like you and myself. We don't necessarily have access to these deals. You know, we don't have access to the tempo deal. I mean, we don't have access to the, you know, um, whatever it is, circles arc deal, or we don't we

don't have access to some of these, uh, like I guess what I'm getting at is if if I asked you how to get exposure to stable coins, you could say Ethereum, plasma, stable, circle stock. Um, and and there's a couple others, but like this is a mega trend. And people in our community are kind of poed because they're like, well, how do we even get access to this? This is clearly the dominant investable narrative of the entire sector. payments, stables, tokenization, but how do we even invest in this? >> That's the problem. You can't outside of the few options you listed. And okay, investing in Ethereum or Salana because of stablecoin adoption, that's just like one of the many reasons why you may invest in those assets, right? Circle stock, I mean, it was felt kind of overvalued when they came out and with

interest rates going down, I'm not sure that's a great buy. And so that's it. You're left with a few protocols. Athena's got absolutely whacked since the 1010 crash. So, you're left with very few options. And the problem is you what you just shared about Larry Frink and Paul Atkins. Oh my gosh, RWA is so incredibly bullish. We're going to have trillions of dollars on chain and I'm going to be able to like take a mortgage on take my house mortgage and put it in a earn stable coins all stuff. But you know what? There's no great way to invest in that. Sorry. Oh, I'm going to buy Finance. It's a governance tok. It's a governance token. You don't capture any upside. You don't have any legal rights to the company right there.

That's a freaking governance token, man. Ono, super bullish protocol doing all the amazing stuff. You as a token holder. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. Um, man, so I I I know that you were, you know, somewhat active in the AI crypto kind of trend that happened at the end of last year. I thought that was going to come back a bit like you know a yearly kind of cyclical thing where we would see it kind of pop up again. Completely has not. Yeah. I mean NER is doing a great job of capitalizing there and and a couple others but >> price action and just general flows or interest in the AI crypto uh construct is pretty much at alltime lows.

>> Yeah, >> basically. Look that that's basically everything. I mean, we've had again a few things like perpetual swap decks that had their little moment in the sun this year, but >> but even that lark, we've seen these for freaking five years. We saw GMX, DYDX, like it's like >> nothing new under the sun when people come out and say like, "Oh, we're doing info fire, social fire, prediction markets. We were doing prediction markets back in 2017, guys. Come on. It's nothing new." >> [laughter] >> But again, like this sentiment, I try not to get pigeonhold into this sentiment because I know I'm going to spend a lot of time in New York next year and I know it's going to be a massive mass, it's just this expansionary regime. It's just that same issue of like, all right, well then how

do you benefit from, you know, uh, uh, BN or BKNY or whatever it is getting a two billion dollar offer from, uh, Circle or Stripe or or whatever it was like, well, you don't. It it's like it's this really weird dynamic right now and it's causing a lot of apathy. Um yeah, it's causing a lot of apathy >> because you're better off buying uh of stocks and data centers and AI and space companies and biotech and stuff right now because you actually have real shares of a company until we make the token model better and we see broader access get rolled out to regular investors which is going to come. I think Coinbase [clears throat] and others are working on those very things.

I think we'll see more um regular investors get a chance to get a seat at the table, which will be a good thing. But for a lot of this stuff, it's not going to be the case. And for a lot of the best ideas happening in crypto right now, we have to accept we invited Wall Street in. Well, they invited themselves, but they still came and now they brought all their tricks with them. And that's part of the process here is that they're going to be doing these things. They're going to be making their own little things, making their own little deals. and no one's really going to be invited except for you know Naval Rabby and his buddies you know and that's the San Francisco money crowd and they're always invited everything so it's not really different than things usually play out.

>> Yeah. So Lark then I I guess to kind of put this into the perspective that I've been thinking about it is I've been thinking about I' I've kind of uh structured in my mind like there is like a there's this 10-year Silicon Valley outlook towards their investments, right? They go into these deals and they're like these are exponential type of deals. And Hi put this whole thing about exponential investing. And I think if you're a crypto bull you have to adopt this mindset at the current phase where it's like look guys um these are exponential technologies. We're in decade one and a half of the biggest crypto asset. We're in decade one of Ethereum. If we're in this for the next two to three decades, then you know that's kind of the 10 year 20 year

vision that you have to have with some of these uh kind of like liquid venture bets. Um but at the same time, you've got to be extremely extremely extremely kind of paranoid and pragmatic about like what it is that you're holding and like very very understanding of what it is you're buying and holding on to. So I I guess like the way that I've taken these these two outlooks that we've kind of built the context off of for this conversation and applied it to the investing side is like all right here's stuff that I want to just take a 10 to 20 year bet on and and look back and I don't want to be like I sold Amazon in 2002 you know and and I don't want to be like I sold Tesla you know in 2011 but at the same time I also don't want to be

the guy holding Enron and the guy holding um you know MySpace and so it's It's kind of this uh apples to apples with some of the early tech companies that have been thinking about this. Um and I think it would help a lot of people to take a 10-year view on their really strong convicted crypto asset bets. However, being very uh paranoid, pragmatic, and being willing to adapt their thesises along the way, >> it's a good idea. The problem is that there's very few assets you could realistically consider holding for more than a year in crypto. maybe more than a few months in crypto and that's just the harsh reality of I mean the AI agent thing, great idea. All these AI agent things, even virtuals, great idea, great

platform, token slaughtered. Will it do well in 10 years? May not be here in a year. Hard to say. >> Yeah. >> Whereas you could look at, okay, Bitcoin Ethereum Salana okay 10-year bets, sure. Uh apps, a Sky, they're probably going to go the distance. Chainlink probably going to go the distance. We start running out of names real quick, though, to be honest. And that that's the problem. If you're if you're going to go out and buy Monad, for example, gosh, so much hype. Monad, Monad, Monad came out, boom, instantly down. Launched at a terrible time, a whole bunch of reasons why things will do what they do. But do we really need another layer 1? I mean, really, it's 2025. Your idea is to launch a layer 1

blockchain. We already have like 900 of them and n and only four or five of them have any users. So, is Monad going to be the next Amazon? Is that the one that we hold on to for 10 years? I have my doubts. Right. >> Yeah. >> But you do agree that there is a next Amazon that is in front of is in front of your face and that you have to be able to like the winners will be the ones who are able to hold out. >> Absolutely. I think that's I think the name of that Salana by the way. >> Really? That's your that's your uh that's your Amazon bet potentially. I feel like that's one you could uh could hold for years. Although that being said, if we do get some kind of big season in uh 2026 and it goes to like 56

700 bucks, take the profits, reby it in the next bare market. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh last thing for you. Do you think um so so XRP has kind of been like this massive uh polarizing asset, let's say, for various reasons. Seems like this year they've really capitalized on this whole um you know let's just say like crypto legislation polit like political environment etc. Um chart looks pretty rough. I don't know what's going on over there. What's your take on XRP? Do you think X XRP is going to survive for for the next 5 to 10 years?

>> Probably. Um, look, I I I've never been the world's biggest XRP fan, but I'm also don't not anti- XRP. And people like freak out. Oh my god, you don't own XRP, but don't you know about all like, yeah, I know you guys tell me all the time. I've looked into it. We'll trade XRP when the chart looks good. It's fine, man. Now, look, XRP is a very interesting one. Will it be here in 10 years? Probably. Does it deserve its current valuation of some mind-boggling number? What's what's the current market cap? Let's have a quick look here. current market cap is $116 billion. No, I don't think it deserved it$170 $180 billion market capitalization either.

Now, RLUSD is gaining traction. It's got about $1.3 billion market cap for their stable coins. So, that's not bad, right? And there are RWA coming on chain and stuff like that, but I think the market is pricing in some unbelievable future for XRP. Now, again, not anti-XRP. When I learned about XRP back in 2017, I said, "That's a cool idea." Now it's like, "But why wouldn't I just use Salana to send USDC for a fraction of a penny? What what do I need XRP?" But the banking partnerships, man, don't the banking partnerships. Yeah. Okay. But they're stable coin. Yeah, we have a whole bunch of other stable coins, too, man. What do we need all USD for? Like it's it's value proposition in 2025 is

just not what it used to be. And you got to be honest about that. That's why like I'll I'll I'll trade it, man. I'll date it, but I ain't gonna marry XRP. >> What about the XRP chain link rivalry? How do you feel about that one? That'll get the people going. Who's [laughter] I think I think Chainlink's going to mob them over the next 10 years. I think Chainlink dominates, but I don't think the XRP uh army is going to feel too fondly about that. What's your take on this on uh who really owns the Swift banking partnerships? [laughter] >> Who really owns? Apparently Lineia, don't if you saw that. Apparently they got a big swift partnership as well. But anyway, I think chain link is an infinitely better asset than XRP.

Okay, guys, come on. Just relax. Relax. Okay, I don't own a chain link currently, but I think it's an infinitely better asset. Their CCIP technology is incredibly persuasive. They've got the great partnerships and all that kind of stuff, but more importantly, XRP is very much [snorts] a silo, right? They've got everything going on in their XRP silo and it's really not that much going on if you look at the daily user metrics and stuff like that. But okay, sure they've been around for 10 years and still don't really have that great of a user base, but they got a lot of holders and people are really excited about the vision that um Brad and Charles or Brad and uh Chris, you know, push out to the world all the time. So, I get it. I understand why people invest in XRP. Again, it's not a very persuasive asset for me, but

I understand the reason why people do it. If they pull it off, if Chris and Brad really pull it off and make everything magical happen with XRP, man, it's going to go to, I don't know, 10 bucks or something at some point. But anyway, >> but I know, but I know. But chain link though, chain link, gosh darn it, it is one of the most fundamentally important protocols in the entirety of the cryptocurrency industry. Okay? And that's a very, very different value proposition. It's everywhere. It connects to every silo essentially and it has the infrastructure to make all the silos talk to each other and bring assets, you know, move corn from silo to silo.

>> It's a pretty amazing piece of technology and now they finally started doing uh buybacks and stuff like that. So now there's finally after years and years and years some kind of exactly some kind of reason to own it finally. So, I think Sergey is very much aligned with the things you like in crypto, you know, the decentralization, the good tech, and all that kind of stuff. I think he's the right kind of founder with the right kind of vision. Whereas, um, I feel like Chris and Brad have really just, man, they've made so much money. They've made so much money. It's crazy that both billionaires just from dumping XRP in the market.

>> Weekly dump, just a monthly, weekly dump is insane. >> Oh, man. Amen. Amen. Lark Davis, man. Uh what's your what's the rest of your week look like here? You got a busy one? >> Just grinding out some videos before we get to the uh holiday season. Basically going to try and take uh a good week or so off. You know, I might sneak in the occasional live stream if something exciting is happening. But try to take off a little bit time over the holidays, but still, you know, grind out some videos, get some stuff pre-recorded. Got some juicy ones coming like the Bitcoin Epstein connections. That's going to be fun. >> Oh.

Uh where can our audience find you, Lark? just come over to X, look for Lark Davis. I'm there. You'll find me. We're always sharing charts, talking about stuff, having a good time. So, I'd love to see you there. >> All righty, man. Thanks for joining today. It's been uh it's been a fun start to the stream. Appreciate your time and your content and just general contributions to the space, man. We'll see we'll see where we end up. We will see where we end up. Talk to you three to six months hopefully. >> Peace. >> Peace, buddy. Bye. >> All righty. Well, that is Lark for you. uh absolutely a character and has a lot of takes, a lot of things to say. One of the bigger YouTubers in all of crypto and uh uh that was a fun conversation. I I think we probably agree on a lot of

things, but you can feel the sentiment. Like you can feel the I don't want to say it's like overly negative, but you can feel you can just kind of feel how >> um like the sombering of the sombering of the reality that is setting in into this space is very real. Like the somber reality of like, oh, it's not just up only. It's not just going to be, you know. So, I'm choosing to be optimistic, guys. I'm choosing to be bullish. I'm choosing to be in the institutional bull camp in the short term camp. That is where you're going to be as if you're in that screwed is if you're in the I'm choosing to be a part of the I'm

choosing to be a part of the Wall Street NYC. I encourage you guys to do the same, >> guys. That's the only way I'm guys that's the only way I'm keeping my head on my shoulders amongst the pump fun induced insane um token dilution that has happened in this market. So um yeah this this is uh this is the state of affairs. This is the state of affairs.

Looking at the charts I mean I don't know it doesn't even matter. We're not even that really short-term oriented here on the rollup. Um, we've taken so many uh long-term angel venture bets as well as just like have long-term core positions that we established in 2019 2020. Um, so we're not really short-term, but yeah, it doesn't look great out there, but that's the reality. That is a sombering reality brought to you directly by Lark Davis. Uh, up next, uh, we have, uh, Andria Bernatova, founder of Dynamics. interesting uh company here uh energy oriented and just kind of has a lot of has probably a lot of business going on at at the current state of of

affairs given the data centers and and given the demand for uh power, electricity and more. So guys, without further ado, why don't we go ahead and bring uh Andrea up to the stream and get this get the show on the road. Let's get started. I am so sorry if I'm butchering your name. It is a beautiful name, but I can't imagine I'm saying it right. Could you help me out here? >> And where are you from, Andrea? All right. I'm a I'm a big Prague fan.

I'll tell you that. I I've had some good times out there in the Czech Republic. Good to have you calling in here. Uh we're talking energy. We're talking Ethereum. Before we do, uh would love to just hear about uh what Dynamix is for our audience just so that they can get a bit of context and we got tons of different things for energy for uh AI Ethereum etc. So what is Dynamix and kind of what is your what is your role there as the founder? >> So thank you for having me having me first of all uh really exciting. Um I so Dynamics has two separate platforms. So we have a our spa platform and right now I'm the CEO and chairman of Dynamics 2 essentially or Dynamics Corporation is

the official name uh where we uh recently in the summer announced a uh merger with the Ether machine Andrew Keys company obviously who's been uh you know one of the founding founders of the Ethereum space. uh we actually and at the end of October we took our third spack public called Dynamics Corporation 3 uh and I'm a CEO and chairman there and uh we are right now searching for another merger candidate for Dynamics 3 and then separately we have our private platform that is separate from our spaxs that's called Dynamics Capital Partners where we look to partner with companies on the private side generally sort of looking at 50 to $150 million equity tickets and that's um generally in the

uh sort of energy and infrastructure ecosystem that's uh that's in bulk right now but you know it's been around for hundreds of years just people are noticing it uh very recently. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And congrats on a $200 million uh raise or just over that for uh Dynamics 3. Um that's this is awesome. So So if I understand that part correctly, we'll start we'll go backwards here. Um that is where you you guys help uh companies go towards a spa listing, right? Is that kind of a >> towards a public uh listing? That's right, Andy. So uh with Dynamics 3, we are listed on the NASDAQ. And so what we do is we raise the risk capital first that supports the initial IPO of the spa

that you just mentioned, the $200 million race um at the end of October. And so we have that uh about 200 million in the trust as cash and are now searching for uh a merger with another company with an operating business and through our spa that business is going to you know likely go public uh will be hopefully able to contribute capital into the combined business. >> Very cool. Very very cool. All right let's talk energy. Let's talk AI. Let's talk demand situation that has just been absolutely exponentially increasing. I remember speaking to a couple AI kind of AI crypto adjacent investors as well as just some uh AI investors in Silicon

Valley about two two and a half years ago and I was just basically like guys if there's a if there's a dependent variable that we can create as kind of like a constant function for what your investment thesis will be kind of centered around for the next 5 to 10 years in these categories. Kind of like what is that? And the overwhelmingly consensus answer was simply the demand for compute is just going to keep increasing. So it's basically do with that what you will think about you know like this first second third order consequences of this and then you've got a you know relatively firm investment thesis for this you know category. Now of course that is true until it isn't uh but we are not there yet and I'm not sure if we'll ever be in a in a world where demand for compute really dries.

Perhaps it'll come in some sort of specialization or if we create better chips or better models that don't need as much compute etc. I'm sure there could be some innovation there but for the time being the last three years that has rung extremely true. talk to us about what this kind of uh compute equation looks like today kind of maybe catch us up over the last couple of years um a and what you're seeing looking ahead for this demand side of the uh for compute from the AI perspective >> yeah obviously there is a lot of hype around AI um you know like you said it's it's sort of interesting because um we've had obviously continued demand and increased demand for energy whether it's fossil fuels or whether it's renewables

It's really anything at our disposal that has been uh you know driven by just the growth of industrials uh you know growth obviously of cloud in the recent years and now we are entering sort of this new AI ecosystem you know the difference I would say actually Andy between maybe the last waves of energy versus this one is just the quantum of energy and power that's required is just you know orders of magnitude of uh of the past and I would say the Second component is also the demand for power uh you know on its own right. So sort of the utilities power space has generally not been a space where uh folks are uh you know uh looking to enter if you are

graduating at the age of you know whatever 22 from college or 25 from business school you know it wasn't necessarily a career that you would want to envision yourself for decades to come and and I think that has changed I mean it is you know the the entire ecosystem from uh energy extraction or production uh to transportation you know the pipelines and the wires to power production and then power distribution. I think that is what we view from our perspective that is the single biggest element that's essentially going to um drive the growth or maybe slow down the growth uh of AI um you know of this AI ecosystem. So,

you know, I am addicted to uh AI. I'm sure you are. And if we are, then you know, my kids certainly are. And [laughter] us, it's just going to be a uh hey, they they they will not be able to, you know, imagine life without it. Just like we can't imagine life without internet. >> Yeah. >> You can't imagine life without you know iPhone as the same way that how how they are viewing you know AI. It's part of school system. It's it's you know part of everything we do in our daily lives. But the single most important component from our perspective, obviously you have, you know, chips on one side, but really what is going to drive everything is the energy and power infrastructure around AI.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious what you think the most realistic energy stack is for supporting this kind of hyperscaling of AI. Is it non-renewable? Is it renewable? natural gas, micro grids, solar, even kind of how do you think about the like the energy stack powering AI? You know, you've got Elon and the guy from Google, I think, um talking about creating data centers in space. Um so clearly, you know, people are thinking about where they're going to get their next batch of energy from, which I think is a bit absurd. But h how do you think about the uh growing energy stack for supporting hypers scale AI?

>> You know, in my next life, I do want to be Elon. uh you know I definitely lack the uh uh you know the the the visualization the way that he sees the world. Um I am just a crude realist here who was brought up in a you know hardcore communist country a few decades ago. So a very different approach. I mean um you know so I can't comment on on sort of the the more futuristic visions which very well may be true honestly. Um, but I'm thinking about the next five to ten years, right, in my very active sort of professional lifetime. What's going to happen? And the reality, Andy, is would we like I think all of us would

>> um, you know, including the guys in the in oil field, by the way, I think everybody would generally like to have a cleaner environment. Um, that there's, you know, nothing I would say severely controversial about it. If you can have a choice between clean versus not clean, I think you'll always go in that direction. But the reality is that it's just not something that's practical over the next 5 to 10 years, right? And so what we have seen a shift is essentially in the 2020 2021 time frame, everybody wanted green and green. Everybody wanted solar and wind and >> geothermal. you know now we are kind of um mesmerized by I would say the nuclear uh component and so you know hydrogen

right was very much flavored azure for a period of time and uh those are all I would say additive sources of energy but if you really think about you know I'm concerned about not whether we are going to decarbonize in five years those are others that have a task at hand that you know are going to you know develop a transformational technology that ultimately is going change the world and maybe we will not need oil and gas at that point but I am concerned about decarbonizing over the next five years right that is something that's possible that's that's you know very executable and you know if you think about it from that perspective gas is really the solution at scale so what gas solution provides from a power

perspective is one decarbonization versus coal right so that's number one number Two, it's a sort of subset of energy that's attainable in the short term, not decades, you know, in five years or in eight years solution. It is a solution that's very executable within, you know, months. And then the third piece and that's very important Andy in this energy uh uh solution these days specifically for AI is resiliency. you know, you need 99.99% of reliability. You know, unfortunately, the renewable sources that we have available today are are not generally uh you know, the the best source for that

resiliency perspective. And on top of that, of course, what you have is more severe weather patterns, whether it's cold or warm or hurricanes or whatever it may be. you know, we really need a solution that's in the ground, that's stable, that's available even, you know, during some of those um more dramatic events that are not just prevalent in the coast of Louisiana and Texas. It's it's really prevalent in in parts of the world where you didn't have those weather disasters before. So, I would say um gas is going to continue to be very scalable and prevalent uh over the next five years. And you know we are of course going to be continuing adding renewables whether it's solar and

batteries and you know wind and others but um uh we need to be mindful about actually creating solution over the next five years not in years. Yeah, I think um you know I can't help but think that this kind of general decarbonization concept sounds extremely uh impactful from a conservatism and an environmental perspective but falls kind of weak in a perspective of hyper capitalism. If I don't really care about, you know, the impact that I'm having on the on the, you know, O2 layer or the ozone layer with my work, then I'm just gonna do what, you know, what I can to out compete you because you do care and then I I I simply will. So So is that wrong?

But like how does your kind of uh let's just say like altruistic kind of motive here behind the energy and your your thesis around that how does that actually relate to the unit economics of other sources of energy that perhaps are a bit more destructive and perhaps uh require or produce more carbon. >> Yeah, I think it's it's sort of interesting. So two things I would have to comment on that when you actually look how much money has been spent in the renewable spend space and who spent that money you will see that the the large oil and gas companies are the companies who spend significant amounts of money whether it's hydrogen carbon capture obviously wind solar etc you know geothermal right and those are also

the companies that are probably the best equipped Andy to take renewables to the next phase >> right because those [clears throat] uh energy is very capital inensive business. You just can't produce energy from nothing, right? And so um it is very dangerous business and so you know the oil and gas companies are the companies who are every oil well or gas well or every piece of infrastructure if you don't do something correctly somebody may die right I'm sure a lot of folks have watched uh the landman episodes uh recently and I thought you know obviously exaggerated but it did bring a very interesting light into the oil and gas business and that's very

transferable into renewables. And so um you know and at the end of the day I would say the third element it's obviously you know oil gas a volatile commodities you know similar to the renewable commodities and so I would say that's that's another phenomenon where where you have people who've played in that space for for decades. So I would say that number one. So who are the people who actually will play in renewables? It likely will be the people who played in oil and gas from companies and investors um perspective. You know I would say the the altruistic piece um you know it is I think we have to be always mindful do we want a clean solution? The answer is yes. But if the solution is not

economic, it is just not fair to be you know sacrificing you know availability of energy um uh versus the you know clean energy. I mean maybe in you know Santa Barbara or Beverly Hills that's you know some of those solutions are are very viable uh but not for you know a regular person whether it's in America or whether it's in Europe or whether it's in Africa or around the world. That is a really important equation that we have to think about. What is the economics and the availability of energy for the you know end consumer from India to Brazil to Oklahoma.

>> Yeah, totally. Yeah, I appreciate that explanation. I think that yeah, that that kind of cleared up my my my question there. Um, coming to the Ethereum part of the equation. So, you know, ticker ETHM, you guys mentioned that you collaborated with our, you know, friend of the show, Andrew, to kind of uh bring this company together. So, I is the right way to think about th this this company like a a dual-sided bet on Ethereum and this growing, you know, compute demand kind of energy demand equation. like what is the what is the right way to think about your company as far as like what shareholders are you know in investing in or what potential uh investors are looking at

not financial advice here just just trying to understand what the breadth of the scope of this uh investment is. So um the Ether Machine um and Andrew that company is housed you know it's it's a merger that's specific to Dynamics Corporation which is uh you know the the one of the spaxs that we have um and so that's going to be it's a you know clean vehicle. What we really like about the Ether machine is is one obviously you know Andrew and the team have been doing this for a decade and so they are wellversed they are doing this full-time. Andrew obviously is uh uh contributing about 150,000 of his own ETH which is you know significant holding in the space. So he's you know

very dedicated to the um to the company over short, medium and and long term. Um and I would say that you know the fact that we have a sort of a clean vehicle that's not you know burdened by sort of some historical components uh it makes it very very easy. We've raised obviously we've raised 2.2 to billion of equity capital. So gives it a very solid footing and and and start. Now I would say thematically Andy what does you know Ethereum have to do with energy and power and and AI and all that? Um interestingly enough there are a lot of similarities between the two spaces. So both uh you know digital assets as well as energy infrastructure are very

capital heavy. you can't invest 20 million and create 20 billion. Um you know you will need continuous uh deployment of capital in order to grow uh both sides of those business you know both ecosystems. Um and you know it's obviously very technically heavy uh on both sides but I think the most critical piece and that's why we you know really like uh partnering with uh the Ether machine on you know with Dynamics Corporation uh was the fact that both industries we view as missionritical over the next 5 to 10 years. You cannot live without energy and power. you know we would like to not possible um and and and in

similar way we we view the crypto space and Ethereum specifically you know I mean the way that it's going to change and I know you you know your viewers and you guys are wellverse uh on that topic but you know I meet 99% of the people I meet whether it's a end consumer or whether it's multibillion dollar family offices or very very large institutional investors This space has um it's truly in its early innings, right? There's a lot of misunderstanding or not complete understanding what crypto is actually going to mean over the next 5 to 10 years and how it's going to fundamentally change our lives, you know, similar way Andrew says this

pretty publicly, similar way that internet did for us or or iPhone, right? We are going to just the way we transact, the way we think about contracts. I mean taking a step back you know every day for you or I or anybody you know unless you live in the desert by yourself somewhere but it's just series of contractual decisions and you know we don't kind of think about it because we got used to the way that we function but you know in five years or 10 years or whatever the timeline is those contractual ways of you know um just working on a on a daily perspective is going to look fundamentally very different. So I compared Andy and I came to it as a newbie >> right earlier in this year. I haven't

lived in this kind of crypto ecosystem for the past decade. But the interesting thing for me was when we think about landline phone right so we were able you and I you know we could call from you know New York to Boston hey how are you doing Andy? Are you having a good day etc through a landline right? uh we are now doing it obviously via our phones and you know whether it's different apps WhatsApp, phone, FaceTime, whatever it is we see each other now we couldn't see each other maybe that's a bad thing in some cases that you know you see the other person but um the point is we still just communicate right it's just a communication form but it's fundamentally totally different so that's how I view crypto and that's how

I view Ethereum is that we will be doing the same things it's not like we're not going to be transacting But it's going to be so different >> in terms of the way we'll do it and Ethereum is, you know, we view is going to be the backbone of that exercise. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's get a bit deeper into that. So, you know, I think Ethereum has its its role in this emerging AI energy uh economy that that is really growing and is set to really grow continuously over the next five years. Uh I think how is is still yet to kind of be determined exactly like how Ethereum fits in. Um, but I'm curious from your perspective, from working with Andrew, from your expertise in the energy sector, how do you see uh kind of like this AI energy

economy uh intersecting with blockchain and, you know, whether it be Ethereum or others? H how do you see these actually playing out uh from your, you know, uh expertise in energy? You know, we've seen different like uh supply chain examples. We've seen um you know you know the the typical kind of like removal of the middlemen from a contractual perspective from a supply chain perspective obviously just like the verifiability and the provenence of blockchain allows you to have kind of like this immutable ledger. Talk to us about how how you see uh energy markets and Ethereum kind of intersecting over the next five years. Yeah, I think you know [clears throat] obviously the growth of AI is underpinned by energy and by the trust level and so we talked

about energy previously and the trust level you know we do think the Ethereum ecosystem is going to be critical for that. um when you think about um you know it's it's been really um sort of refreshing to see large institutions like the black rocks and you know obviously most recently Jamie Diamond I was kind of like a uh you know in his camp for a long time if Jamie says this doesn't make sense therefore it doesn't make sense and obviously you know we changed our mind uh with with dynamics a few months ahead of uh Jamie actually but um anyways long story short I think the institutional sort of uh you know embracing that is is huge right because you are essentially either going to play

along the crypto ecosystem or be excluded and so you know there will be obviously role in of financial institutions in that space but I think at the end of the day Andy the way that I really see um the the space having impact is is the general consumer right is the guy whether he is a you know plumber in you know uh North Dakota Kota or whether he is a train driver in the you know in the Czech Republic is is actually we need to sort of educate and push the usage and that could be as you mentioned right I mean cutting off the middleman you know the the apps that we are now using for transportation or

accommodation etc and everything else it's you know the mortgages but I think what's what's also interesting about the crypto space it's it's going to be more catered towards to what you Andy like right or or want or you know when do you want it right I want to have a uh you know chamomile tea at 6:00 a.m. on on Monday mornings and it's going to cost me more at 6:00 a.m. at at 5:00 pm on Tuesday. And so there's going to be a much more customization to, you know, [clears throat] what our needs are. And I think that's going to sort of enable more of a velocity, right, of transactions as well. So um I think that's going to be the you know end

impact one of the end impacts as well in terms of the mass consumer really embracing the space and you know Andrew and and we talked about this quite a bit is is that end consumer is you know cutting off a lot of the you know a lot of the middleman um and the processes that we now have to go through and the transparencies that we don't necessarily have now. >> That's going to be the game changer you know whatever time frame that may be. You heard it here first, guys. Ticker is ETHM. Andrew has committed 150,000 of his own ETH. He is an Ethereum OG and legend. You've got the energy expertise here of Miss Bernato, Energy Times, Ethereum Dynamics. Thank you for your time. Um I I've been watching some of your latest shows on the media tour,

CNBC and CoinDesk and some of these others. So, uh good good on you for putting the word out there and I appreciate you sharing some of your insights with us today. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you, Andy. Thanks for having me. >> Happy holidays. Have a good holiday season. >> Bye. Alrighty, guys. Bada bing, bada boom. That's the energy Ethereum thesis. Uh we've actually heard a lot about energy this this last couple uh you know days into last week. We had Daylight. We had a couple other kind of energy companies. And guys, I had been pulling up this book in the previous episodes, which is the rise of America. If you guys are an American and you have not read this book, I think generally speaking, it will influence your investment decisions

going forward inside of crypto and outside of there is a crypto and blockchain section in this book, but it also talks about a lot of the sectors that you see that are getting hot on crypto Twitter nowadays. Um, so you've got uh gold, you've got energy to fuel the rise of America, critical me uh metals, a short history of money, which is important to understand why crypto is important and the rise of America will raise the rest of the world. Guys, if you have not read this book, it has influenced a lot of my investment philosophy with regards to the debasement trade, if you will, which is essentially the uh rise of modern monetary theory, which I think we are pretty much firmly into now, which is

just a system of credits and debits. It's a bit deeper than that. Um, and the Fed just kind of moving things around and stimulating and contracting as they please. Um I it it is leading to a remaking of the world order. Marin Katusa really really good author guys. I would definitely check it out. Um guys up next we've got Mlan Wilkinson the co-founder of threshold talking Bitcoin Bitcoin FI. This is one of the hotter institutional categories in the market today. So we'll get Mlan up uh after I've just shilled you guys on a on a must readad holiday season reading. So, why don't we bring him up and let's get the show on the road.

>> Hey, Andy. Adding that book to my list. >> Yes, man. Yes. I I honestly these days, these kids these days, they can't even read anymore. So, we just do the audio books, the the audles. >> That that works for me because I got a lot of toddlers running around, so not much time for for sitting down and reading. >> Nice, man. Um well, first of all, happy holidays. is I know it's kind of like the final week before uh people kind of slow it down, but it feels like a pretty pretty uh just pressing week in crypto given the market, given the state of of the news. I had Lark Davis on about an hour ago. We're talking about how every week these days there's just some news that in 2020, 2017, these would be groundbreaking reality shattering pieces

of news. But once again today, Visa is choosing to use Salana for their stablecoin experiments. And it's just like, >> all right, another day in cryptoland, I suppose. Very interesting market dynamic. >> Institutions are here. Institutions are here. That's >> they are. And they're gobbling up Bitcoin. They really are true. And Bitcoin is the only asset in this entire market that had a bull run this year other than Hyperlid and a couple random meme coins last year. >> Yeah, I think that's absolutely correct. U you know, it's been it's been a strange cycle for a lot of reasons. One of is the one you mentioned where Bitcoin has been in a bull. You know, last last couple months, you know, unclear what's going to happen, but you know, overall big time bull for bull market for Bitcoin and almost everything else, you're right. Like even stuff with

traction and DeFi and everything else is kind of in this protracted bare market. >> It's weird, man. And so, you're the co-founder of Threshold. You guys do a lot of Bitcoin, what you guys call Bitcoin FI. Uh, you know, I generally think about this in a couple different categories. I'd like to, you know, [clears throat] dive into it. I think at you know to just to lay the context here. You've got this kind of contractionary phase happening like we're talking about. You've got you didn't really see any big altcoin runs. We didn't we haven't really seen a lot of traction outside of uh you know a couple select crypto assets. Um so that there's like this trimming of the fat you know in our telegram groups. We're seeing marketing uh departments kind of uh slowly wind down. We're seeing layoffs happening. We're seeing just

kind of like a general reality check within the cryptonative space. But then Michael Sailor goes and buys a billion dollars of Bitcoin yesterday and uh Tom Lee buys another 300 million and Visa's, you know, they're building stable coins on on Salana now and and the SEC is saying that they're going to bring all markets on chain in two years. And the NASDAQ uh puts in something yesterday to do 23 hours of trading uh five days a week. And it's just this acceleration of institutional adoption of either the crypto technology or the way that crypto markets work. And it's really just a weird dynamic for the average crypto investor right now. What is it like from a founder perspective? How do you navigate this kind of weird state where

the apathy on in the crypto natives is so high but the bullishness from the institutions is so strong creating this interesting kind of like line in the sand. >> Yeah. I mean I think we're in an interesting spot where our user base serves you know draws from both of those pools. So, a lot of institutional capital is is starting to explore DeFi and and how to deploy Bitcoin not just on their balance sheet like they have historically but actually earn earn yield on top of that Bitcoin uh in interesting novel ways primarily on chain and through DeFi but also you know potentially borrow against that Bitcoin.

And you know on the same on the h same hand like we have you know a lot of uh native DeFi users you know who have been sort of our our primary user base you know the last few years um you know who are still very actively bridging back and forth between native Bitcoin and DeFi using provisionless protocols like TBTC um but also you know tend tend to have a lot of exposure to sort of long tale of crypto assets as well. also like psychologically and emotionally are there a lot of them are kind of in an interesting spot uh you know the last last year or so and >> so what is it that the institutions really want to do with threshold like what is it that the whales want because if I'm a bitcoin whale and I've talked to you know about this with different

kind of like bitcoin uhes projects and it's like I want to probably borrow against my bitcoin and not sell it I want to do that in a tax advantageous way such that I don't need to pay taxes to go from like BTC to TBTC or BTC [clears throat] to WBTC. That shouldn't be considered a sale. If I've been holding this thing for 5 years, that should not be a sale of my ass and have to pay tax on that long-term capital gains to go to the same asset. And I want to do it in such a way that is like the closest to native Bitcoin as possible with the least amount of smart contract risk because I've just had this thing in a ledger buried for the last five years. I haven't touched it. It's it it keeps me up every night. So, why would I, you know, risk that? And so

that's kind of like my general mental model of like a Bitcoin whale or like an institutional app capital allocator. Where did I, you know, what did I get wrong? What did I get right? How do these people want to interact with uh Bitcoin onchain? What do they want to do with it? >> Yeah. No, I think you're you're pretty much dead on. I think the the use case and the value prop um is almost exactly the same whether you're you know, you know, retail whale that has a lot of Bitcoin or your institution. There are some differences around like specific requirements in terms of compliance and workflows and things like that. But in general, we have like two primary things people want to do. One, like you said, they have a lot of Bitcoin, maybe with a lowc cost basis. They want to stay long

Bitcoin, but they need, you know, some sort of working capital or cash, you know, for whatever reason, they want to borrow against that Bitcoin either to pull cash out into fiat or just a lot of people want to lever, you know, lever up and and go even longer Bitcoin. So that's one uh being able to borrow against your bitcoin you know without depending on your your jurisdiction triggering a capital gain. The other is wanting to generate some yield on top, you know. So, we have obviously the last, you know, year, year or two, just this entire new phenomenon of institutional uh like Bitcoin asset treasuries uh regular, you know, operating companies that are accumulating Bitcoin. Uh and now they're starting to explore what they can do beyond that to generate some additional yield and drive returns for their

shareholders. particularly, you know, as we've seen a lot of these asset treasury companies start to trade below NAV, they're looking for ways to kind of, you know, differentiate themselves from, you know, from the pack. And so onchain yield and draw generating yield on top of their Bitcoin, uh, on top of their balance sheet is one way to do that. And a lot of the most interesting opportunities are in DeFi. um you know whether that's LPing on dexes um some of the novel dexes like yield basis offering like very high organic trading APIs um or or you know trading purps or doing doing all these various things on chain farming new projects etc there's a lot of lot of opportunities um beyond just you know what they can do in in

trady which is basically just lending out their bitcoin in an unsecured way yeah so there's those are the two primary use cases >> looks very similar whether you're institution or you're you're you're just a retail whale. >> So one of the things that I understand about tokenization and just about generally you know these these institutions coming on chain is like they're looking for this distribution edge that they don't currently have with you know their given customer base. So that you know they look at Salana and they look at Bitcoin and [snorts] they look at Ethereum they look at L2s Sui [clears throat] and Arbitum and Starknet they think to themselves like there's there's the set of users here that if we tokenize our product you know we can get exposure to this new customer base that would maybe want to buy this product from us. Um with TBTC you guys just

recently uh uh kind of like redesigned re rebuilt out your sui arbitum starknet. Um I I think there's probably upwards of half of a trillion dollars of idle Bitcoin right now just kind of hanging out. Does this expansion to different chains, this new minting directly this new function? Does this enable like what does this enable for you guys? Like why why was this such an important product choice? >> Yeah, I mean the northstar for threshold and TBTC is for TBDC to be the standard for Bitcoin finance. And that means TBDC is present in every market that matters.

So all the major L1's, major L2s, basically anywhere where there is demand to deploy Bitcoin, we want to give people the rails to do that. And so the way we think about that is it should be as easy as possible and as seamless as possible to go from native Bitcoin to Ethereum one to Salana to Starknet to arbitrum to base basically wherever you want to deploy your Bitcoin. Um we want to make that super easy and permissionless and seamless. So basically allowing Bitcoin to flow like water back and forth from native Bitcoin to you know whatever the destination chain is. You know we we don't we're not opinionated on like how and where people should deploy their Bitcoin. We just want to give them the best rails and the

most secure rails and the fastest rails to do that. Um with the new upgrade to the the app and gasless minting and direct minting to all these different destinations. Um, that's just sort of improving the UX and making it super easy for that Bitcoin to move back and forth, you know, to move from native Bitcoin to a destination, from that destination to another destination, etc., without having to sort of stop um, you know, you know, basically do all this manual bridging and and clunky UX um, yourself and just making it super easy, super intuitive and straightforward.

>> Yeah, man. Yeah. And I think that has resulted in this big TVL boost that you guys have had. Um, >> yeah. Where's that came from? >> It's up pretty significantly earlier this year. >> How much institutional sales are you guys doing? >> I think we're we do expect like institutional deposits are going to be the primary driver of TBL uh and volume for TBDC over the next couple years and months. U so that's primarily where the growth is coming from as these institutions like I said before are looking for ways to deploy their Bitcoin.

>> Do you have an institutional sales arm? Like do you have like that that kind of like uh >> we have a we have a BD team. Yeah, they're a small BT BD team. Um they're based in New York as well. >> They're based all over. So we've got and they travel a lot. So they're based I would say they're based they're based on the road. Uh so they're they're definitely putting in the miles uh you know on the airplanes and getting all over the place where they wherever they need to meet meet people. >> Um so that'll be a big piece for us. Then the other big unlock uh for institutions in particular and this is kind of where we start to see some divergence in the needs not necessarily these cases but the needs of retail users and institutions is uh around the

the custody of the underlying bitcoin. So one of the biggest unlocks that we're having going to have for TBTC uh very soon in 2026 is the ability for institutions to essentially bring their own custody and to be able to mint TBTC or borrow TBDC against Bitcoin. uh that they're self-custodying with a with a qualified custodian. Uh we think this is a really important um part of unlock for DBDC from a compliance perspective, from a regulatory perspective. Uh and that just matches sort of the the sort of more trady or traditional workflows that a lot of these um institutions will have. And so that will be uh I think that will be bring a massive wave of Bitcoin on chain and deployed into DeFi.

>> Yeah, man. I mean, do you think that there's a lot of Saudi money that's going to be coming on chain? Like, uh, I think there's a lot of money over there. People will kind of write that off. There's a lot of Bitcoin wheels over there. I I think uh I think Larry Frink was saying that the sovereign wealth funds over there are starting to really allocate towards Bitcoin. >> Yeah. I mean, I I don't know the exact order of, you know, who what type of institution will come first, but there is a lot of Bitcoin all over the place. That's the the beautiful thing of Bitcoin, right? Like it is a better version of gold. you you can move it across halfway across the world instantaneously. You can't bring, you know, hundred million dollars of gold.

Good luck trying to move that or I found it's quite heavy, >> quite hard to get quite hard to get across borders. >> Bitcoin can move instantly. Um I think we're already starting to see a lot of the uh digital asset treasuries, Bitcoin asset treasury companies starting to look to differentiate themselves. um you know a lot of traditional you know prop desks uh hedge funds uh certainly sovereign royal funds I think will you probably are accumulating bitcoin I don't know that any any of them or any large ones at least yet are are doing that so are doing that publicly I'm sure it's happening >> yeah yeah exactly >> um you know and there's obviously like you know a delay and like a learning period you know once people start get comfortable accumulating bitcoin on their balance sheet you know then they start to look how can we how can we

actually deploy this so there's always a little bit of a lag, but I I think we'll increasingly start to see more and more types of institutions and traditional players and large pools of money accumulate Bitcoin first on their balance sheet, just native Bitcoin, and then, you know, after that learning period, start to deploy it and to earn additional yield on top. >> Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. Um I I think I saw something on Twitter that that you acquired 2% of your token supply. >> Yeah, actually more at this point. uh you know I think uh TBTC you know if we execute correctly is is the rails that will unlock most of Bitcoin fi um and so I think you know given the price action of you know alts in general yeah >> um and I think threshold in particular especially when you map it against the

the the traction that we've gotten over the last you know over 2025 essentially and the the traction that we're poised to get with this bring your own custody and and other unlocks that are coming up soon um you know obviously I think like the the biggest proof point way to display my conviction is one where I'm spending my time which is on TVC and two exposure to to the the value acrruel asset for threshold which is which is T. >> Yeah, looks like uh market cap to TVL is about 1/5if ratio that's looking in the positive direction. Let's see if we can get that thing up there. TVL nice double triple quadruple here should reflecting the market cap. But the market wants to know why would I hold this token if it's just a governance token that has no rights to any cash flows from the from

the work that you guys are doing. All the equity holders are getting all the profits. The hell am I holding the token for? You know, you got Axelar getting bought out by Circle and all the AXL token holders are looking around wondering who's left to buy this thing. >> Yeah, I think what's your viewpoint on this? >> I think that's a great question. particularly the last couple days there's been a lot of a lot of interesting uh and for in many cases for token holders unfortunate sort of events um across the the crypto space um I mean I think the the main thing with TBTC is there is no uh equity capture um all value acrruel goes directly to the T token um and I'm you know that's why I'm buying the T token um the we're introducing some interesting aspects for

additional utility and value capture to uh one of which just went live which is Tstaking. And the way that the bridge works right now is when you redeem TBTC back to native Bitcoin. The bridge charges a 20 basis point fee. Uh but we're basically with Tstaking, we're allowing stakers to deposit te into a staking contract and get instant fee rebates on that redemption. So this is actually a super interesting um mechanism for market makers for arbitrageers who want to make money by arbiting the the price any price differential between TBDC and native Bitcoin. Uh they can stake te redeem for free and have this sort of special rails to go back and forth between TBDC and Bitcoin and capture any potential uh

spread in the price between the onchain price versus you know the price of Bitcoin. Uh I think we're also looking very much into vaults and yield bearing uh yield generation uh strategies for people that want to earn yield on bitcoin and just one click. Uh and so we're launching a lot of vault oneclick deposit into a vault earn yield uh and threshold will be earning uh a revenue share um split with the strategist and the cur vault curators on those vaults. Uh, and that that revenue will drive back into into the token either via buybacks or potentially in the future some kind of um staker distribution.

>> And that's with like the guys like MV Capital and Avenguard and Enzyme and those kind of vault curators that you're working with there. >> Yeah, exactly. So, we're working with a variety of different vault curators and strategists who will deploy uh basically a menu of types of strategies. So some are you know p purely onchain yield farming lping on dexes others are doing in traditional delta neutral basis trading strategies a variety of strategies sort of with different API targets and and risk uh risk factors um that people can opt into a particular vault that fits you know the risk appetite and their yield target uh and everything on the back end the yield generation the work of sort of doing that deploying it on chain or deploying it you know wherever it's being deployed

is handled by the strategist and so the depos depositor um doesn't have to do anything. They just deposit and then they you know they they sit back and and let that happen on its own. Obviously like you I think the bread and butter for TBTC is a lot of people a lot of native DeFi users will continue to admit TBTC and then deploy it on their own. That's great. We want to support that. U but there's increasingly number of users who who don't want to have to manage the logistics of of um of managing everything on chain and generating yield themselves. >> Yeah. Yep. Um cool man. the the the last couple things I have. One is is TBT is TBTC available to use in like uh Fireblocks and [snorts] um BitGo and in custodians.

>> Uh yes. So you most custodians um >> okay >> do support TPDC as an ERC20 token. Uh a few of them support being able to connect your different custodians to different setups, but generally you can w use wallet connect or something similar to connect to the dashboard and mint TBTC today. And then the piece that's coming up in early 2026 is the ability for institutional users to deposit their Bitcoin with one of these custodians that you mentioned or several of these custodians that you mentioned uh and then establish essentially an agreement with with Threshold where they can mint or borrow TBTC against that Bitcoin that's custodied with their existing custodian. So this will allow institutional uh institutions to

basically bring their own custody and solve a lot of the compliance and potential tax concerns they have with the current architecture. >> Beautiful. That's what I was thinking about too, just from like a I mean, look, I'm a huge uh huge own your keys, own your coins type of guy. Um, but man, like I've I've found myself over the years just like slowly starting to, you know, either move capital into, you know, into different asset classes or just kind of slowly start to change the like the security structure just to sleep at night better, man. It's just like, oh my gosh, ledgers on ledgers on ledgers is uh yeah, it's it's an interesting dynamic. I do not want the in the institutions do not want to do.

They do not want to see the uh the the ops setup that that we got going on over here. Um anyway, uh last thing for you is Bitcoin going to go to a million before 2030? >> I mean 2030 I mean that's that's your that's a pretty long time frame. So I mean I I think the the bull case for Bitcoin is you know a better version of gold. It's digital gold. You can move it AC around halfway around the world instantaneously. Good luck trying to do that with you know bars of gold. Yeah. >> Um, you know, I think eventually, yes. Uh, I don't know, 2030, I don't know what time frame, but eventually, you know, I think the the the arc for Bitcoin is that it replaces gold. And if you replace gold, you know, that brings Bitcoin to around, you know, a million

dollars per coin. >> Boom. Mlan, co-founder of Threshold. Thanks for your time, man. Hope you have a great day. I'm sure you're super slammed into the holidays with the family, with the with the work. So, props to your work and uh look forward to seeing you guys keep growing. >> Thanks, Andy. I appreciate it. Happy holidays. >> Yeah, man. Happy holidays. Merry Christmas. Talk to you soon. >> Cheers. >> Bye. All righty, guys. Oh, a little zen grab there for the boys, huh? All right, we're we're going to cover some of the uh stuff that we're talking about with Lark and Mlan here uh in on on the screen. So, we're going to get that set set up. I'm going to take a quick breather, be right back, and uh we'll be we'll be ready to rock. So, see you guys in just a sec.

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Yes. Yes, Stanie. Yes. Yes, my boy. We are We are winning big. 2025 is the year that we destroy the SEC one letter at a time. After four days, they're finally ready to share the SEC has concluded its investigation into the A protocol. This process demanded significant effort and resources from our team and from me personally as the founder, who by the way, he also just bought, I think, $10 million of a tokens publicly yesterday. So, that was crazy.

To protect A, its ecosystem, and DeFi more broadly, DeFi has faced unfair regulatory pressure in the recent years. We're glad to put this behind us as we enter a new era where developers can truly build the future of finance. DeFi will win, guys. [applause] Stan's winning, baby. Stanley is I mean guys, it is hard to overstate how bad Gary Gendler was for this industry. I mean, he singlehandedly ran us through many what seemed like unbreakable walls. And so, here we are today, December 16th. Looks like a got

this letter in early August this year. They're finally able to share that they've beat the case. They've beat the case, and you got to absolutely love to see it. So, guys, shout out shout out to uh our our guys, Stani. Shout out to the entire A team for winning this. This is huge. This is massive for this team, for DeFi as a whole. So, super stoked on this for them and I just had to bring this up, celebrate it, and uh talk to our talk to our guy Stanley about it at some point uh in the near future. On the next note, the SEC is making bigger moves um and actually coming public. So, let's go ahead and flip to the next one

here. um our guy Paul Atkins, the same guy that is calling for a all markets to come on chchain by 2027 I suppose or early 2028. He's coming to deliver a keynote to day one digital asset summit presented by Block Works March 24th. We will be there. We will be working the ground. We will be doing live streams. We will have an amazing setup in New York by then as well guys which is still under wraps. TBD there.

You guys are gonna like that one. I tell you that. You guys are gonna love the New York setup next year. It's gonna I mean, yeah. I don't want to spoil it, but man, how great is this? We had Hester Purse on the show a month ago or so. We talked about the importance of this turnaround, and man, are they turning it around. They are really turning it around. So stoked to be there for this and I'm excited. You know, I think that this is a massive milestone for our space. It is just so funny how this space has been built predicated on kind of like anti- rules, anti- legislation anti-government yet the biggest thing stopping us for

this entire time was the government. Um, so very glad to see a turnaround here, guys. I think we have a massive massive boost in in the overall market here and stoked to see this play out. All right, moving on guys to the more technical and uh more adoption focused stuff with stable coins. There was a really interesting tweet that that I saw. We're going to pull it up here next um about the first stable coin funded check. So, uh I wasn't really too familiar with what was going on here, but looks like we have just completed what might be the first ever stable coin funded check payment. USDC to a paper check. I don't think I've written a paper check in my entire life since I was about 10 years old, 15 years old max. Um, don't really

know who checks anymore. Then to a bank account. So, direct end toend funding of check payments via stable coins. If you're thinking, but why? The honest answer is because I thought it would be cool. And you know what? Sometimes some of the best innovations start with, I thought it would be cool. Definitely a bit absurd. And I wonder how widely this feature will be used if you want to use it. But I would say that the reality is that we have absolutely tons of vendors writing and sending checks on ramp and there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to fund these in stable coins. So basically what happened was they took a USDC out of their wallet that was able to be used to write a paper check and then go into a bank account. I assume was pulled out of the wallet into the

check into the recipient's bank account using uh ramp or using some different rails. Probably some Stripe oriented stuff there. So pretty awesome to see stable coins experiments happening. This continues to be the bright spot in this industry day in and day out, week in and week out week out. It's this tokenization stable coinbased primitive or primitives that are really really uh growing this space. So I'm stoked to see it. Um and yeah, excited to kind of see how this plays out. Just wanted to share this with you guys. I thought you guys might find it interesting. All right, now let's get to the crux of the conversation today, which is tokens.

Tokens versus equity. Let's go ahead and flip to the next one. Tokens are going extremes only. Are they? Is Grant from Blockmates correct here? I think a major trend going forward will either be no token or tokenized equity. Anything in between will be uninvestable. So, look, Grant, I think this is a rash take because of the state of affairs on the timeline. I think that this was a good take in the time being. I don't know that there's going to be no token or tokenized equity. This is to assume that there's going to be no more tokens that represent um a token and equity. So I I guess let's just take the the term

equity and not create a um a blind to like stocks. Let's just do equity in businesses. I think he's right. I think the trend going forward is the token is equivalent to the equity and they are one and the same. There's not a equity in the labs and equity in the foundation. I think that is correct. What what I don't think is correct is that there's either going to be no token or it's just going to be an equity in the stock market that is tokenized. I I don't think that's the case. I think tokenized equity in Grant's case here, what he's trying to say is that if there is a token, then it will be equivalent to the equity in the company, not there will be no token and there will be a

stock that's trading that is tokenized. Now, I could also see that happening, but I think that is what he meant and that I agree with. Guys, this problem has long plagued our industry again because I think primarily due to the regulatory regime, due to Mr. Gary Gendler, I think this is going to be gone in in the near future. Um, I don't I don't know how long this takes. I I think it probably takes [sighs and gasps] it's going to take a massive unwinding of of everything that we've done so far. So, it's going to take it we will see progressive change next year relatively quickly, but I think to meet the norm is going to take multiple years. Um, but I

like the general direction. I think this 2025 has really just been like a purification of the space and I firmly firmly believe that. Um, and so I I I expect to kind of keep seeing these types of trends in ensue. All right guys, last one for today. Um, we've got uh Visa and Salana um coming together. So, let's go ahead and flip to that. Um, Visa has announced Oh, sorry, actually going all in on Salana. Uh, going all in on Salana Breakpoint. Uh, this is a crazy tweet, man. This is nuts. So, um, I won't be attending Breakpoint 2026 in

London. I got robbed in London. I lost a finger in Portugal. I can't take another hit. Instead, I'll be fully present in real life, going all out to number one salon ecosystem in crypto. Life happens, y'all. Get a helmet. See you at BP2026. Can't wait. Absolute savage tweet here from our boy Louie Ivon, the CEO at Ryder. Um, I mean, guys, there's been a lot of push back about whether or not we should have this Breakpoint in London. I mean, I think Mert was trying to catalyze a move to uh Tokyo instead uh for, you know, various reasons. And yeah, guys, I mean, look, honestly, I've never been to a Breakpoint. Breakpoint

26 in London sounds great. So, I'm actually bullish on this. Um, and I'm bearish on the migration that has happened into these large European cities. The immigration has been problematic from a lot of reasons. Uh we won't really get into that now, but you know, I think that this is going to be a great place. I think Abu Dhabi was probably a great place for it. But I ought to think that like the Breakpoint 2020 uh five this year, while I'm sure it was fantastic, I ought to think that the sentiment was probably a bit a bit down just because of the market and everything included. So guys, we'll see what happens. Um that's all that I got for you. It's been a good stream.

Tomorrow we got a mega stream with bass. will be starting a little bit later. Big Coinbase event tomorrow. And yeah, guys, um that should be fun. Robbie should be back tomorrow evening. Be on the stream rest of the week. Um so looking forward to having that. Come on out. I'm closing out here, guys. It's been a good stream. See you guys tomorrow. Peace and love. Much love. Later. >> [music]