72 - The Power of Mimetic Desire | Luke Burgis

Transcript

[Music] welcome, to, bank, lists, where, we, explore the, frontier, of, internet, money, and internet, finance, this, is, how, to, get started, how, to, get, better, and, how, to front, run, the, opportunity, i'm, ryan, john adams, i'm, here, with, david, hoffman, and we're, here, to, help, you, become more bankless, david, what, an, episode really, cool, lens, on, crypto, mimetic desire, what, did, we, cover, today, we brought, on, luke, burgess, who, wrote, this book, wanting, the, power, of, memetic, desire and, this, came, on, my, radar, when, i, was listening, to, luke, on, hidden, forces, the hidden, forces, podcast, we, had, a, dimitri kofinas, on, that, is, a, past, episode, and, i immediately, knew, that, we, needed, to, get this, guy, on, bank, list, because, he's

talking, about, some, of, these, very, core fundamental, things, that, we, talk, about, on bank, list, at, times but, in, a, different, lens, and, also, i, think luke, luke, talks, about, it, just, in, a little, bit, more, clear, and, articulate, way the, conversation, of, what, mimetic, desire is, is, both, important, for, anyone, anywhere to, understand, but, it's, especially important, in, crypto, where, some, of, these assets, are particularly, valued, by, reflexivity, or, by group, think, or, by, collective, psychology um we, all, know, in, the, world, of, crypto, you survive, by, understanding, being multiple, different, disciplines, this, is, a very, multi-disciplinary industry, uh, and, uh, the, power, of, memetic

desire, transcends, all, disciplines, all academic, studies, and, it, applies, to crypto, in, so, many, different, respects, and so, we, brought, luke, on, to talk, about, and, and, teach, the, bankless nation, what, is, memetic, desire, how, does it, impact, our, lives, and, then, we, frame, it in, a, crypto, conversation, in, the, second half, of, the, show yeah, david, early, on, you, know, we've, we've always, since, we're, starting, bank, lists we've, known, that, memes, are, important, to this, entire, industry, and, so, early, on, we did, an, episode, on, on, memes, that, was, sort of, live, but, it, didn't, have, like, a, ton, of research, it, was, just, kind, of, crypto natives, take, on, on, memes, right, it's, just kind, of, you, and, i, we've, always, wanted, to return, to, this, concept, of, memes, now, this isn't, quite, like, this, isn't, just, memes

because, memetic, desire is, not, memes, but, it, is, related, to, memes and, it's, almost, the, energy, that, propels memes, but, oh, my, god, it's, an, important concept, like, again, one, of, those fundamental, concepts, that, if, you, don't understand, memetic, desire, you, probably don't, understand, crypto, you, might, think you, understand, crypto, but, you, actually don't, and, i'm, just, like, this, is, an episode, that, i'm, going, to, think, about, a lot, because, the, implications, aren't, just like, many, things, we, cover, on, vegas aren't, just, crypto, implications, these are, like, life, implications, right, and, how society's, organized, implications, and like, how

i'm, going, to, be, thinking, about, this episode, because, it's, going, to, be, one, of those, things, where, i, start, to, see, it everywhere, right, and, then, i'll, have, to make, decisions, with, this, new, mental model uh, framework, and, see, how, i'm, being influenced, how, my, memetic, desires, are being influenced, and, make, more, rational decisions, as, a, result, but i, think, this, is, going, to, be, a, key cornerstone, episode, for, you, guys, and it's, definitely, a, key, mental, model, and concept, that, we're, going, to, keep returning, to, you, on, bankless, it, is, that important right, so, bankless, nation, i, want, you, to step, into, the, side, of, uh, the, matrix, and get, ready, to, pull, that, cord, right, out, of the, back, of, your, head, because, that's what, this, episode, feels, like, it's, one, of

those, things, like, if, this, feels, very much, on, par, with, our, vitaliks, episode, on legitimacy, which, we, bring, up, is, actually one, of, the, themes, of, this, show, also, felt like, the, josh, rosenthal, episode, where we're, really, just, zooming, out, and, and viewing, this, thing, from, a, very, very holistic, perspective, and, that, really helps, set, the, foundations, to, how, to operate, inside, this, industry, but, like you, said, also, just, live, your, life, this is, just, good, life, information, it, just also, so, happens, that, crypto, is, also, good life, information, and, it, applies, to crypto, just, as, well, as, it, does, life david, quick, prediction, i, think, luke, is going, to, go, crypto, native, i, think, he's going, to, become, a, member, of, the, bankless nation, he's, super, open-minded, about, it you, guys, should, stay, listen, to, the, end

make, sure, you, hear, luke's comments, when, we, ask, them, the, question of, what, do, you, think, uh, about, crypto super, insightful, there, too, all, right guys, well, let's, get, into, the conversation, but, before, we, do, we, want, to thank, the, sponsors, that, made, this episode, possible, balancer, is, a, powerful platform, for, flexible, automated, market makers, typical, amms, just, have, two, tokens inside, of, one, liquidity, pool, which, can lead, to, fractured, liquidity, across, the many, pairs, in, d5, with, balancer, you, can access, the, full, power, of, multiple, tokens inside, of, one, single, amm, which, unlocks an, entirely, new, playing, field, of possibility, this, makes, balancer, an awesome, building, block, for, so, many different, use, cases, balancer, pools, can make, asset, indices, but, instead, of, paying fees, to, portfolio, managers, balancer, lets

you, collect, the, fees, from, traders, who use, your, portfolio, for, liquidity additionally, balancer, smart, pools, can, be programmed, to, have, properties, that change, according, to, pre-determined, rules such, as, changing, the, swap, fee, based, on market, conditions, or, even, liquidity bootstrapping, pools, which, can, help, you launch, and, distribute, your, token, with day, one, liquidity, at, banklist, we, use, a liquidity, bootstrapping, pool, to, sell, our bap, t-shirts, too, much, success, balancer v2, brings, powerful, new, features, that makes, your, money, work, even, harder, for you, in, v2, idle, tokens, are, capable, of generating, yield, in, defy, without sacrificing, liquidity, in, the, pool, using balancers, asset, managers balancers, of, vault, architecture, lets, you trade, between, balancer, pools, at, a fraction, of, the, cost, for, trading, on

other, platforms balancers, mission, is, to, become, the primary, source, of, liquidity, in, d5, by providing, the, most, flexible, and, powerful platform, for, asset, management, and decentralized, exchange dive, into, the, balancer, pools, at app.balancer.fi the, ave, protocol, is, a, decentralized liquidity, protocol, on, ethereum, which allows, users, to, supply, and, borrow certain, crypto, assets, ave, version, 2, has a, ton, of, cool, features, that, makes, using the, ave, protocol, even, more, powerful, with ave, you, can, leverage, the, full, power, of defy, money, legos, yield, and, composability all, in, one, application on, ave, there, are, a, ton, of, assets, that you, can, supply, to, the, protocol, in, order to, gain, yield, and, all, of, those, same

assets, can, also, be, borrowed, from, the protocol, if, you, have, supplied, collateral here, you, can, see, me, borrowing, 200, usdc against, my, portfolio, of, a, number, of different, defy, tokens, in, eth, i'll, choose a, variable, interest, rate, because, it's, a lower, rate, than, the, stable, interest, rate option, but, i, could, choose, the, stable interest, rate, option, if, i, wanted, to, lock in, that, interest, rate, in, permanently v2, also, features, the, ability, for, users to, swap, collateral, without, having, to withdraw, their, assets, trade, them, on, unit swap, and, then, deposit, them, back, into, ave with, ave, users, can, do, this, in, one seamless, transaction, saving, you, time, and gas, costs, check, out, the, power, of, ave, at ave, dot, com, that's, aave, dot, com, bankless nation, we, are, super, excited, about, our

next, guest, this, is, luke, burgess, he, is the, author, of, a, book, titled, wanting, the power, of, the, mimetic, desire, in, everyday life read, his, book, so, is, david, luke, really came, to, our, attention, after, his appearance, in, the, hidden, forces, podcast we, wanted, to, get, luke, on, to, explain this, mimic, desire, concept, which, is, that kind, of, the, base, of, a, lot, of, things, in crypto, maybe, a, lot, of, things, in, life maybe, everything, in, life, actually, when you, dig, deep, enough, uh, and, we, want, to relate, that, to, the, bankless, journey, as well, luke, it, is, fantastic, to, have, you how, are, you, doing, today, hey, guys, i'm doing, really, well, thanks, for, having, me on, man, we, have, so, much, to, dig, into because, when, dave, and, i, stumbled, across

this, this, concept, of, memetic, desire, we just, immediately, saw, so, many, things, in crypto, through, which, are, kind, of, like different, or, or, could, be, seen, through this, lens uh, and, uh, could, help, people, who, are investing, in, crypto, buying, crypto, on, the bankless, journey, in, general, and, we, want to, kind, of, divide, this, into, two, two, acts or, two, pieces, here, luke, if, if, you, could help, us, with, that, the, first, is, we, want to, understand, this, concept, that, is, core to, your, book, this, concept, that, you, call memetic, desire, there's, another, related concept, around, memes, that, we've, talked about, on, on, bank, list, we, want, to, like talk, about, those, two, things, how, they're related, how, they're, different and, then, we, want, to apply um

the, lens, of, memetic, desire, to, some concepts, in, crypto, concepts, like, money the, social, coordination, game, of, money concepts, like, markets, concepts, like, nft these, concepts, that, exist, in, the traditional, world, but, also, exist, in, an accelerated, way, in, crypto, certainly, in, a digital, way, uh, something, we, want, to understand, so, that, part, one, and, the, part two, uh, you, game, for, that, you, ready, for that, i'm, game, let's, do, it, all, right, man let's, start, with, this, memetic, desire what, the, heck is, this, what, is, memetic, desire so, it, starts, with, mimesis, this, is, the key, word, mimesis, is, or, mimetic m-i-m, so, it, comes, from, mime, or, mimicry so, this, is, different, than, meme

or, mimetics, which, is, m-e-m, so, memetic, is just, a, fancy, word, for, imitation, right, it comes, from, the, greek, word, nimistai, which means, to, imitate human, beings, are, as, aristotle, recognized 2, 500, years, ago, by, far, the, most imitative, creatures, in, the, world, we, are freaky imitators, we, imitate, language, facial expressions, uh, social, norms, in, fact, if we're, not, good, imitators, things, get awkward, really, really, fast, so, imitation is, foundational, to, what, it, means, to, be human, so, we, are, memetic, creatures, that just, is, to, say, that, we're, imitative what, rene, gerard, discovered, he, was, a french, academic, who, wrote, did, most, of

his, work, in, the, in, the, 60s, through, the 80s is, that, if, we're, so, mimetic, and, if, we imitate, all, of, these, other, things, it would, make, sense, that, we, also, imitate the, very, desires, of, other, people, too, so he, coined, the, phrase, mimetic, desire uh so, humans, have, these, powers, of abstraction so, unlike, animals, which, also, engage, in imitation they, engage, in, rituals, like, when, one gorilla, stands, up, and, beats, his, chest another, gorilla, will, do, the, same, thing they, imitate, at, the, superficial, level what, gerard, calls, the, level, of representation, they, can, imitate superficial, things we can, imitate, interior, motives

and, actions, and, things, that, are, go, all the, way, down, to, the, level, of, desires like, we, can, intuit, what, other, people want, and, we, imitate, them, almost, always subconsciously so, other, people's, desires, legitimize, and give, social, proof, to, our, own, and, make things, valuable, or, less, valuable, now there, have, been, crazy, studies, about, this like, babies that, are, 18, to, 18, months, old, to, two years, old can, look, at, an, adult taking, some, action and, intuit, the, motivations, or, the desires, underneath, the, surface, level, of the, adult's, action and, then, imitate, the, adult's, desire, not the, adult's, external, action, so, one, of

the, famous, studies, with, this, was, in, an adult, goes, into, a, room, full, of, very young, little, babies, toddlers, and, he's got, like, a, toy, dumbbell, and, he, starts, to pretend, like, he, wants, to, pull, the styrofoam, ends, off, of, the, dumbbell, but he, kind, of, fails, and, he, can't, quite, do it, they, leave, the, room and, nine, times, out, of, ten, the, babies pick, up, the, dumbbell, and, they, know, what the, adult, was, trying, to, do, they, just immediately, pull, it, apart, so our, levels, of, imitation, go, very, deep, to abstract, desires, of, other, people and, we're, constantly, reading, and, taking social, cues, based, on, what, other, people want, and, allowing, that, to, influence, what we, want, but, that, is, almost, entirely pre-conscious, or, subconscious, so, gerard

identified, this, mimetic, nature, of, the human, person, it's, just, how, we, are, we're just, memetic, creatures, biologically, this stuff's, hard, wired, in, it's, also hardwired, in, and, we, know, that, our, brain has, mirror, neurons, in, it, so, when, we, see somebody, else, do, something, like, eat, an ice, cream, cone the, neurons fire, in, our, brain, that, would, be, the, same neurons, that, would, fire, if, we, were eating, the, ice, cream, cone so, you, know, we, we, see, external, things and, it, triggers, this, memetic, response neurologically, and, and, does, things, and and, kicks, hormones, in, in, going, so, yes, i mean, this, goes, down, to, the, level, of, a

biology, it's, hardwired, into, us, the difference, between, us, and, animals, is that, we, have, these, powers, of, abstraction so, we're, talking, about, things, like crypto, and, lifestyles, and, career, goals um, it, also, comes, into, play, with, these things, too, and, that's, where, it, gets really, interesting i, think, a, really, important, point, and when, ryan, ryan, did, the, intro, he, talked about, how, mimetic, desire, is, a, heart, of the heart, of, the, industry, that, we, operate, in the, heart, of, crypto, but, then, also, zooms out, and, it's, actually, at, the, heart, of everything, i, think, it's, a, really important, point, to, to, drive, home, is, is that, babies, when, they, are, born, at, day zero they, are, geared, up, to, do, one, thing really, above, just, beyond, like, living, and

having, a, beating, heart, is, to see, what, other, people, are, doing, and, try and, distill, down, as, to, what, their, goals are, what, their, objectives, are and, so, if, there's, one, thing, that, babies can, do, when, they, come, out, of, the, womb, is that, look, they, can, look, at, other, people and, understand, at, a, very, deep, like subconscious, level, the, goals, and intentions, of, others, and, that's, actually one, of, the, ways, that, babies, and, and young, people, like, growing, up, that's, the scaffolding, that, they, have, to, become, a human, being, is, that, they, they, use, the understanding, of, other, people, and, what other, people, want, as, a, way, as, a, model for, operating, in, the, world, and, so, the fact, that, it, comes, out, at, day, one

indicates, the the, how, far, down, in, the, basement, of, the human, brain this, this, effect, goes, and, therefore naturally, because, it's, because, it's, at day, one, of, the, human, body, and, the, human brain, of, course, it's, in, every, single thing, that, we, talk, about, and, discuss, as as, adults, and, to, some, degree, it's, also suppressed, like, it's, not, really, a conscious, thing, that, we, we, see, as, adults it's, just, something, that, we, act, out, and it's, uh, and, this, is, why, naturally, uh, you came, to, onto, our, radar, when, you, were, on the, hidden, forces, podcast, talking, about the, hidden, forces, that, dictate, the, world it's, this, this, power, of, memetic, desire is, the, substrate, that, we, all, live, in it's, the, air, that, we, breathe, it's, the

water, that, we, swim, in, yet, we, don't really, identify, it, really, anywhere, it's the, base, layer, it's, it's, layer, zero, um and, we, can, talk, about, that, later, because i, think, there, are, some, other, layers, and we, can't, really, understand, the, other layers, until, we, understand, layer, zero and, two, interesting, points, on, that, you say, from, day, one, babies, are, imitating it's, actually, from, like, t, minus, three months, we, know, they're, imitating, during the, third, trimester, while, they're, in, the womb, they, can, hear, the, intonations, of their, mother's, voice, so, the, second, that they're, born they're, already, imitating, the, way, that their, their, mother, spoke, in, their, cries so, chinese, babies, cry, differently, than german, babies, because, it's, a, tonal language, and, german, isn't, quite, so, tonal so, that's, how, deep, it, goes, even, before

they're, born, they're, imitating, from, the womb from, the, womb, and, we, know, that, here's another, really, interesting, point, about this babies, imitate, facial, expressions, and follow the, eyes, of, their, of, their, parents, from the, minute, they're, born, but, they, only, do that, with, humans, they, only, imitate humans, not, uh, robots, not, animals, they seem, to, sense, that, oh, these, people, are like, me, and, are, therefore, worth imitating, i, think, that's, a, fascinating point, that, we, we, somehow, like, mimesis, or mimetic, desire, is, something, that actually, connects, us, together, as, human beings, yeah, that, that, point's, super interesting, a, book, we, we, talked, about, a lot, on, bankless, is, uh, yuval, harare's book, it's, called, sapiens, right, and, he

makes, the, point, that, like, the, thing, that separates, human, beings, from, animals, is our, ability, to, coordinate our, ability, to, share, mental, stories themes, tell, stories, but, ultimately, our ability, to, coordinate, that, is, our superpower, and, if, you, think, about, um you, know, mimetics, and, our, ability, to, to mimic, that, is, something, that, uh, is incredibly, powerful, it's, given, our species, the, ability, to socially, coordinate, at, levels, the animals, the, animal, kingdom, does, not, have that, is, the, cornerstone, of, all, of, our technology, from, social, technology, to like, hard, technology, to, things, like, the internet, to, everything, that, we've, built

up, over, time, this, is, a, power for, humanity, if, you, will but, it's, also, kind, of, like, a to, use, dungeons, and, dragons, terminology it's, kind, of, chaotic, neutral, because, it is, a, power, but, it's, a, power, that, can, be used, for, good, things uh, but, it's, also, a, power, that, can, be used, for, bad, things, for, for, tearing, down is, that, sort, of, how, you, see, it, as, it's just, a, superpower, that, humans, have, we have, to, recognize, it, but, like whether, it's, good, or, bad, is, kind, of dependent, on, context that's, a, great, way, to, think, about, it it's, a, double-edged, sword, i, think, we have, to, have, like, a, real, ambivalence towards, memetic, desire, because, it, can, be used, for, good, and, it, can, tend, to lead, us, into, conflict, and, rivalry, when

we, don't, realize, that, it's, happening, so yes, it's, an, incredible, power, it's, kind of, like, the, sexual, powers, right, uh, they can, be, used, for, good, they, can, be, used for, for, bad, they, can, get, people, into trouble, like, pretty, much, most, of, the human, faculties, that, we, have, can, go, and can, go, in, both, directions, and, the, medic desires, is, the, same, thing, how, come, this doesn't, show, up, on, maslow's, hierarchy, of needs, than, luke maslow's, hierarchy, of, needs, is interesting, so you, know, maslow didn't, seem, to be, concerned, with the he, was, focused, on, human, needs, and, i don't, think, he, understood, the, universe of, desire, and, and, kind, of, the, structure

of, human, desire, that, rene, gerard identified um if, you, look, at, maslow's, hierarchy, of needs, it, assumes, like, a, teleology, right of, like, things, that, a, human, needs and, we, just, kind, of, like, once, we, once, we knock, some, out, we, just, kind, of, move, on to, the, next, ones, and, there's, this, very like, clean, progression, as, we, move towards, the, top but, in 2021, 2021 you, know, we, live, in, a, world, where it's, really, dominated less, i, mean, there's, there's, more, models of, desire, as, gerard, calls, them, than, ever before, so, we, have, to, take, a, step, back because, i, i, don't, think, i, can, explain the, difference, between, maslow's

hierarchy, and, gerard's, non-hierarchy, of desire, without, understanding, like, the way, that, that, gerard, said, desire, works and, by, the, way, for, those, that, aren't familiar, with, this, i, just, bring, this, up because, this, is, kind, of, psych, 101, stuff you, know, some, of, you, listening, probably learned, this, in, in, high, school, as, well but, maslow's, hierarchy, of, needs, is, like just, this, triangle, the, base, layer, of, the pyramid, of, the, triangle, is, psychological uh, no physiological, needs, like, food, water warmth, and, rest, that, sort, of, thing, and then, it, kind, of, scales, up to, things, that, uh, are, less, basic, needs and, more, psychological, needs, and, more kind, of, you, know, self-fulfillment, but nowhere, on, this, chart, do, we, see, mimetic desire, and, i'm, kind, of, curious, why, so

continue, the, story sure, i, mean, memetic, desire, permeates every, single, block, on, that, chart, all, the way, from, the, bottom, so, when, we, start, at the, bottom, we're, looking, at, things, that are, heavily, instinctual, so, we, have, kind of, a, biological, physiological, basis, for things, like, thirst, and, hunger, and, warmth and, security, so, those, things, are, the bottom, of, the, pyramid, think, of, it, as like, our, body, has things, like, built-in, mechanisms, built-in signals that, tell, us, what, we, need so, if, we're, dying, of, thirst, in, the desert our, body, just, has, built-in, mechanisms that, tell, us, we, see, water, we're, going, to drink, the, water, even, if, we're, alone right, it's, very, simple as, we, move, beyond, the, world, of, purely

instinctual, responses, into, the, universe of, desires, think, about, lifestyles, and career, choices, and, abstract, things, like stocks, and, crypto, um, and, and, just, just the, world, of, ideas, and, desires, we, don't have, the, instinctual, basis, anymore, we, we lack, that, so, like, how, do, we, choose, one object, of, desire, over, another gerard's finding, his, really, important, discovery is, that, we, find, them, outside, of ourselves, we, don't, have, the, built-in mechanism, so, we, have, to, look, externally to, find, the, signals, and, we, find, them, in the, form, of, other, people, or, groups, that model, desires, to, us, and, signal, to, us what, is, worth, wanting, and, what, is, not

worth, wanting, so, these, are, called, our models, of, desire, they, basically, generate and, shape, our, desires, for, us, this, is very, different, than, the, way, we, normally think, of, our, desires, we, think, that, i think, in, our, hyper-individualistic, world and, hyper-rationalistic, mindset, we, have this, idea, that, like, we, generate, our desires, on, our, own, or, we, want, something purely, based, on, our, objective, rational analysis, of, the, qualities, of, the, thing itself and, that's, denying, kind, of, the, social process, that, we're, all, embedded, in, and the, way, that, we, look, to, other, people to, help, us, value, things, and, and, to understand, whether, or, not, they're desirable, now, when, it, comes, to, maslow's hierarchy, this, this, memetic, desire, has

seeped, into, every, level, of, it, so, i, don't want, to, pretend, that, okay, there's certain, needs, and, then, once, we, fulfill the, needs, then, we, move, into, the, this world, of, desire, it's, not, like, that, i mean, look, at, today, water, itself it, you, know, we, typically, choose, the water, that, we, drink largely, based, on, mimesis, it's, not, just like, there's, water, now, there's, 50 different, brands, of, water, all, marketing like, different, properties like, how, do, we, know, which, one, to, want, so like, even, the, things, that, maybe, used, to be, more, uh, let's, call, it, instinctually driven, are, no, longer, that, way, like mimesis, has, pervaded, every, single, part of, that, pyramid so, most, of, that, pyramid, are, not, needs, at

all, i, mean, they, fall, more, into, this structure, of, desire, that, gerard, was describing, and, you, know, that, if, you, look at, the, pyramid, it, would, seem, as, if, one could, move, up, the, pyramid, individually without, anybody, else, but, that's, not, the world, that, we, live, in, we, we, live, in, a world, surrounded, by, other, people modeling, desires, to, us, all, the, time, so, i think, that, pyramid, is, not, a, pyramid, at all, it's, basically, a, pandora's, box, after you, get, past, the, first, two, levels especially, you, can, just, lop, off, the, top and, we've, entered, the, universe, of desires, i, think, the, context, of, being, in a, 2000s, era, world, really, changes, up, the role, that, maslow's, hierarchy, really offers, us, like, maybe, if, we, go, back, 5, 000 years, and, we, talk, about, like, do, you, have

water, as, in, like do, you, have, access, to, a, stream, that, you can, drink, water, from, or, else, you, will die, and, then, also, if, you, talk, about clothes, and, shelters, like, oh, do, you, have like, the, height, of, an, animal, on, your back, and, also, you, found, a, cave, like great, like, you've, got, you've, knocked down, those, basic, things, off, of, off, of maslow's, hierarchy, in, 20, in, the, world, of 2021, like, most, of, these, things, are largely, taken, care, of, for, us, at, this point, and, so, now, now, to, what, you, say it's, like, no, it's, not, about, having access, to, a, stream, it's, now, do, you, like voss, water, or, do, you, like, smart, water, or do, you, like, dasani, and, then, also carbonated, man, carbonate, all, the, way topo, chico, i'm, a, topo, guy and, but, then, also, with, clothes, on, our

back, it's, no, longer, just, like, oh, i, found like, the, height, of, an, animal, to, keep, me warm, it's, like, oh, there's, a, fashion sense, that, i, particularly, go, for, and fashion, changes every, three, to, six, months, and, hairstyles change, and, just, you, know, culture, changes and, as, a, and, really, what mimetic, desire, is, is, this, game, that, we all, play, is, like, oh, you, you're, picking that, so, i'm, gonna, pick, this, so, you're gonna, pick, that, so, i'm, gonna, pick, this and, all, of, a, sudden, we, have, fashion trends, and, hairstyle, trends, and different, which, is, what, culture ultimately, becomes, uh, luke, does, that vibe, with, you, it, does, vibe, with, me, i mean, i, heard, one, person, put, it, like, this for, the, first, time, in, human, history we're, no, longer, struggling, with, scarcity

or, having, to, cope, with, abundance that, that's, one, way, to, sort, of, abundance we're, having, to, cope, with, abundance, so we're, no, longer, struggling, to, survive and, struggling, over, scarcity, i, mean there, are, still, scarce, things, and memetic, desire, creates, scarcity, by, the way, but, for, the, most, part, you, know, we have, most, of, our, basic, needs, taken, care of, and, the, challenge, for, us, is, coping with, abundance, and, that's, where, mimetic desire really, goes, into, overdrive coping, with, abundance, i, love, that, line and, that i, think, the, way, that, we, are, coping, with that, is, that, maybe, mentally, humans, are like, okay, we, have, all, the, 50, different types, of, water, but, what's, the, most desirable, water, what's, the, most

desirable, fashion, sense, and, so, even though, we, are, in, this, land, of, abundance it, seems, like, mimetic, desire, is, actually trying, to, reintroduce, scarcity, back, into really, abundance because, that's, the, game, that's, the, game of, mimetic, desire i, think, that's, right, and, you, know there's, a, there's, a, thousand, different altcoins, and, crypto, assets, to, choose from, it's, overwhelming, right, like, what's the, signal, through, the, noise and, memetic, desire, uh, seems, to, be playing, a, more, pervasive, and, a, more important, role, in, today's, world, than ever, before because, of, this, very, thing, you, know because, we, we, do, live, in, a, world, of abundance, it's, less, clear, what's desirable, and, what's, not, and, the

objective, criteria, i, mean, there, are objective underpinnings, for you, know, whether, things, are, beautiful whether, things, are, true, or, desirable, but we, all, know, from, having, spent, some, time like, in, the, investment, world, and, just, as human, beings um in, in, our, romantic, life, and, in, all, in, in politics, that, there, are, all, kinds, of other, things, going, on, that, influence, why people, want, things, and, mimesis, is, really the, hidden, force that, i, think, once, you, understand, what mimesis, is, and, how, it, works, you, start you, can't, unsee, it, you, start, seeing, it everywhere, around, you, especially, in, the markets, yeah, absolutely, i, feel, like that's, so, true, you, do, start, to, see, it

everywhere, and, i, want, to, just, make, sure that, this, point, is, underlined, this, this hidden, force, as, you, say, this, thing, that underlines, everything, with, with, the things, that, we, want, individually, and desire, individually, but, also, the, things that, we um, desire, collectively, are, not, our, own so, it, appears, this, way, it, appears, that, i like, this, certain, paint, color, on, my, wall because, i'm, the, sort, of, person, that likes, that, that, pink, color, it's, my choice, or, i, drink, this, specific, water, or i, buy, the, specific, cryptocurrency what, you're, saying, what, mimetic, desire is, saying, the, theory, of, of, the, medics, is basically, like, no you, didn't, make, any, of, those, choices, the

clothes, that, you're, wearing, the, vibe, the way, that, you're, talking, the, accent, that you, have, everything, about, you is, mimicking those, around, you, other, humans, we we're, not, individuals, in, this, world we're, part, of, this society, this, collective, group, of, humans that, we, mimic, to, one, degree, or, another and, therefore, this, is, the, sobering, truth that, you're, bringing, to, light is our, choices, and, preferences, and, desires and, wants, aren't, really, our, own, this, is what, you're, kind, of, unveiling, this, is the, man, behind, the, curtain, i, just, want to, make, sure, that, that's, underlined, for folks, how, would, you, put, it, i, would, put it, like, this, that, um

our, desires, are, not, individual, our desires, are, interdividual, and, one, of gerard's, collaborators, coined, the, term interdividual, psychology and, he's, saying, we, can, really, only understand, psychology, um, at, the, end individual, level, like, not, just, as, every as, every, person, is, like, a, stand-alone mind, we, can, only, understand, psychology in, a, relational, context, right, to, bring other, people, into, it, so, like, if, a husband, goes, to, a, psychotherapist the, psychotherapist, can, really, only understand, his, psychology, if, he understands, the, relationship, with, the wife, right, so, it's, where, it's interdividual, psychology, here's, one, way to, think, about, it

what what, gravity, is, to, physics mimesis, or, memetic, desire, is, psychology that, means, that, it, is, a, this, relational force that, that, desire, is, sort, of, generated, in and, through, relationships, in, the, space between, people, not, like, ex, nihilo from, from, ourselves, and, that's, a, really important, point, so, i, think, you, said, it very, well, that, a, desire, is, social, and desire, is, generated, and, takes, shape through, a, social, process now, one, of, the, first, questions, that, a lot, of, people, ask, me, is, like, i'll, frame it, in, crypto, terminology, blockchain terminology, okay, like, then, what's, the

genesis, block, here, right, like like, is, it, is, it, turtles, all, the, way down, is, it, memetic, desire, all, the, way down, yeah jack, butcher, and, i, actually, put, out, an nft, called, memetic, desire, all, the, way down, um, just, like, poking, fun, at, this concept so, i, guess, if, you're, a, theist, you, would say, that, the, genesis, block, of, desire, is god um, if, you're, not, a, fiest, then, the genesis, block could, come, through, some, stage, of evolution, right, um, you, know, 2001, a, space odyssey, like, sort, of, depicts, in, the beginning, of, that, like, there's, just, like innovation, and, and, so we, could, admit, that, like, yes, some, people can, do, things, that, are, then, imitated, or

copied, um, but, it, seems, like, desires, are kind, of, spread, and, passed, down, through the, ages, through, some, process, of, of imitation, their, derivative, you, can, even see, how, that, works, in, a, family, right like, that, the, desires, of, parents, very often, get, passed, down, to, the, children um, so, that's, you, know, it's, a, little, bit mysterious but, i, think, we, can, just, look, at, our, own experience, and, if, we, if, we, look, at, a, lot of, the, things, that, we've, wanted, if, we look, hard, enough, we, can, usually, find some, hidden, model, somebody, or, something that, gave, us, the, idea, or, planted, that desire, in, us, in, the, first, place so, we, can, see, animals, having, nomadic desire, we've, brought, this, up, so, far, in the, conversation, and, but, animals, just have, a, much, more

uh, blunt version, of, mimetic, desire, and, so, you know you, could, theorize, that, when, we, were apes, we, and, we, still, are, apes, lord, to, a very, significant, degree, that, we, were participating, in, the, same, mimetic, desire that, we, are, participating, now, it's, just that, now, that, the, human, brain, has, grown so, much, more, complex, we, are, able, to, dive into, much, more, nuanced, levels, of momentum, desire, so, perhaps, mimetic desire, goes, back, down, to life, itself, right, and, maybe, this, is, an it's, an, interesting, time, to, bring, up, the subject, of, memes, um, but, before, we, do that, i'll, give, you, a, chance, to, add, in any, any, thoughts, luke, well, i, think, this is, a, great, time, to, actually, talk, about genes, and, and, and, talk, about, biology, and the, difference, between, genes

and, memes and, memetic, desire, so, i, think, we, have layered, thinking, is, really, important, and i, think, that, the, best, way, to, understand this, is, looking, at, a, few, different layers so, let's, just, start, from, the, beginning just, real, quick, like, what, what, is, a, gene a, gene, is, a self-replicating, unit, of, biological information, that, is, stored, inside, of, a chromosome, right, and, and, it, replicates it's, got, some, code, it's, like, make, more of, me that's, a, gene, so, a, meme this, is, a, term, coined, by, richard, dawkins in, 1967, in, his, book, the, selfish, gene uh, he, coined, the, term, meme, intentionally riffing, off, of, the, biological, gene

and, a, meme, he's, trying, to, find, like, an analogous, uh situation, for, ideas, and, and, and non-organic, things and, he, coined, the, term, meme, in, that, book uh, susan, blackwell, expounded, on, it, in the, in, the, 80s, and, 90s, so, what, is, a, meme well, a, meme, is, not, a, unit, of, biological information, it's, a, unit, of, cultural information, that, is, stored, in, a, in, a human, mind, or, in, a, human, brain actually, where, it's, stored, now, is, really interesting, right, because, we, have, like second, brains, and, extended, minds, and memes, can, be, stored, on, the, blockchain you, know, what, i, mean, like, so, i, literally have, a, folder, on, called, memes, on, my computer, it's, right, so, it's, just, i, have

purchased, the, memes [Laughter] it's, a, it's, a, unit, of, cultural information, that, is, stored, somewhere, and and, and, it's, self-replicating, right, and is, and, it's, passed, on but, so, what's, common, to, both, of, these things, is, like, the, role, of, replication or, imitation, and, the, way, that, they're spread, and, they, both, have, to, do, with information, right, so, so, a, meme, is, about like, a, stored, unit, of, information um, so information, on, its, own, doesn't, really have, much, meaning, right, think, about, it like, if, i, would, have, said, the, the, meme brexit, to, you, 10, years, ago, you'd, be, like what, the, hell, does, that, mean, i, mean, it's like, is, that, like, a, k-pop, band, or something, like, it, wouldn't, have, it, would

just, wouldn't, have, mean, it, meant anything, to, you, right, but, like, brexit, is a, meme, that, represents, think, of, it, like short, code, right, like, like, shorthand, it represents a, bunch, of, desires, it, represents, rivalry it, represents, like, that, it, represents, a culture, it's, a, very, compact, unit, too like, even, like, like, mega, right, make america, great, again, that, is, a, very compact, unit, of, like, four, words, that just, contains, four, letters, so, much culture, four, letters, excuse, me, exactly which, culture well, that's, a, really, important, point, crt meme, okay, like, these, things, are, like, uh what, a, meme, does, is, like, concentrate memetic, desire, and, concentrate, people

it's, like, a, it's, like, what, a, laser, does to, light, like, like, a, meme, is, incredibly powerful, right, it, represents this, whole, complex, set, of, of, desires, and things, and, rivalries, so, my, point, is, that memes, emerge, from, from, like, from, culture so, there's, like, a, there's, a, level, before this, like, memes, this, is, not, the, base layer and, what, i, propose is, that, the, the, the, base, layer is, is, mimesis, and, like, human, desire, is is, like, the, base, layer, layer, zero right, before, there, was, language, people were, wanting, things, there, was, desire there's, this, social, process out, of, which

culture, emerged, so, so, culture, and, memes are, kind, of, like, uh, layer, one, but, you can't, really, understand, that, without understanding, layer, zero, which, is memetic, desire, and, the, social, hidden forces, like, we, know, this, we, know, that pre-lingual, babies uh are, are, a, have, memetic, desire, they, they fought, they, do, gaze, following, joint visual, attention, with, the, mother, the mother, looks, at, something, they, want something, to, right, so, this, is, that's, the base, layer, layer, one, would, be, culture when, the, memes, come, out, of, the, culture and, they, don't, make, sense, without, it they, don't, have, any, meaning and, then, layer, three, i, would, say, is, like the, app, like, like, an, application, layer right, it's, like, it's, like, the, way, that

that, we, um, apply memes, and, and, various, things, to, bring about, outcomes, so, like, there, are application, layers, in, politics, where like, memes, are, created, to, represent, a certain, group, and, then, that, meme, is either, attacked, or, or, it's, boosted, and so, those, in, my, mind, and, this, is, kind, of complex, i, have, to, like, write, a, sub, stack about, this, but, those, are, the, layers, in my, mind, yeah, i, always, feel, like, you're like, so, the, app, layer, is, something, that we, would, refer, to, on, on, bagless, that you're, talking, about, it, almost, becomes like, the, um, the, institutions, right, like some, of, these, memes, end, up, in, like, legal code, and, institutions, and, like, you, know um technology, like, money, is, maybe, an, app layer, on, top, of, layers, of, mimetic, desire

and, then, memes i, i, was, trying, to, get, my, head, wrapped around, this, because, it's, difficult because, mimetic, desire, and, memes uh, they're, spelled, differently, right, and they're, kind, of, related, but, they're, also different, so, i, was, wondering, if, you'd agree, with, this, luke, when, i, was, trying to, wrap, my, head, around, what's, the difference, between, what, you're, talking about, memetic, desire, and, memes, and, like what, are, some, of the, similarities, so, a meme, is, that, unit, of, information, that that, idea, or, that, unit, of, desire but, its, memetic, desire, that, really, gives uh, the, meme, life, that's, the, social, force that's, like, the, the, energy, that, propels a, meme, into, existence, and, without

memetic, desire the, the, unit, of, information, that, you have, the, idea, that, you, have, that's encapsulated, in, a, meme, just, dies, it doesn't, get, propagated, doesn't, get pushed, out, through, society, it, just, kind of, is, out, on, its, own, has, no, energy, and it, dies, but, the, successful, memes, are really, propelled, and, pushed, through, the energy, that, is, like, memetic, desire that's, what, pushes, it, it's, almost, like memes, are, the, what but, memetic, desire, is, kind, of, the, the yes, and, the, how, around, this yeah, well, i, think, that, mimetic, desire is, the, missing, part, of, fully understanding, memes, i, think, they complete, each, other, i, think, it's, really important, to, understand, the, relationship between, memes, and, memetic, desire, i

totally, agree, with, you, that, memes, are like, the, what, they're, like, the information, but, they, don't, describe, the how, like, the, behavior the, energy, that, actually, does, anything and, dawkins, himself, was, was, not, i, don't think, he, really articulated, how, it, happens, i, mean meme, theory, by, the, way, is, like, it's, it's sort, of, controversial, i, mean, there's, a lot, of, stuff, that, hasn't, really, been figured, out, um, and, i, think, one, of, the missing, pieces, there, was, memetic, desire like, humans, are, the, carriers, of, memes and, humans, have, memetic, desire, we're mimetic, creatures, and, understanding, how the, behavior, of, humans, gives, life, to, a

meme, and, allows, memes, to, spread is, really, important here's, another, important, distinction between, mimetic, desire, and, and, memes memetic, desire, is, the, imitation, of desire it's, not, the, imitation, of, a, thing, it's the, imitation, of, desire, so, we're imitating, people so we're, not, imitating, like, a, what, we're imitating, a, who, and, that, means, that mimetic, mimetic, desire, is, more, volatile if, the, if, the, person, so, we're, imitating their, desire, and, their, desires, could change and, since, we're, imitating, the, person, and not, an, idea, as, their, desires, change, our desires, change, too

so, this, is, another, another, difference, is that, we're, talking, of, the, difference between, information, and, imitating, and replicating, information, and, then imitating, desires, and, and, that's, where memetic, desire, is, in, a, way more, chaotic, and, more, volatile, it's, like um it's, like, looking, at, a, flock, of starlings, right, and, and, like it's, still, mysterious, like how, they, change, direction, like, the murmuring, how, it, happens and, we, know, like, it's, probably, due, to the, seven, starlings, closest, to, one, of them, is, what, determines, how, they, move but, we're, still, not, entirely, sure, so, the movement, of, desire, i, think, is, just

there's, far, more, complexity, in, that system, than, there, is, in, just, looking, at memes, as, discrete, units, of, information so, the, to, keep, on, going, with, this metaphor, there's, more people's, genes are, largely, dormant, uh, and, and, we, have way, way, way, more, inactive, genes, in, our dna, than, we, do, active, ones, and, depending on, what, environments, that, we, put ourselves, in, some, genes, will, deactivate while, some, genes, will, activate, right well the, reason, why, we, have, so, many, dormant genes, is, that, when, we, go, into, our particular, novel, scenario, we, have, the genes, that, are, ready, to, help, us, adapt, to that, novel, scenario, we, just, have, to

activate, them, and, so, when, it, comes, to this, game, of, mimetic, desire, which, is largely a, game, being, played, at, the, psycho-social level, like, it's, your, brain, connected, to my, brain, connected, to, ryan's, brain connected, to, the, people, that, we, engage with, all, these, brains, as, like, a, mesh network, this, coordination, game, of, who, is everyone's, looking, around, is, like, who, is wanting, what, like, what, do, you, want, well what, do, i, want, does, that, mean, do, i, want that, thing, and, all, of, a, sudden, the activation, of, a, specific, meme, or, gene, or whatever is, activated, by, and, and, and, and, yeah activated, by, this, this, psychosocial, game of, mimetic, desire, and, so, we, have, all these, potential, there's, infinite, level

of, memes, out, there like, like, ryan, said, all, a, meme, is, is, a little, kernel, of, information, there's infinite, levels, of, kernels, of information, but, it's, the, mimetic, desire that, actually, decides, to, activate, one and, the, reasoning, for, why, something, gets activated, is, largely, kind, of, just, like, a complete, mystery, which, goes, back, to, the the, whole, murmuring, metaphors, like, we don't, know, how, or, why, starlings, change their, path, or, behavior but, they, do, and, they, do, it, in, a coordinated, way, when, you, look, at, it, from a, bird's, eye, view, and, another another, metaphor, or, anecdote, that, i, have as, i, was, watching, a, youtube, video, i shared, it, with, you, luke, you, know, what i'm, talking, about, um, about, these, uh, the ways, that, like, the, universe, just, tends

to, like, sync, up, with, some, way, shape, or form, and, there, was, a, video, of, people, in some, concert, hall, and, they, were, clapping at, the, end, of, the, show, just, random clapping, as, random, clapping, does, and, at some, point, in, time, it, just, flips, into synchronized, clapping, and, so, everyone's a, complete, chaotic, mess, and, then, all, of a, sudden, everyone's, clapping, on, the, same beat, and, it, just, happened, completely organically, completely, randomly, no, rhyme or, reason, no, one, coordinated, this, all, of a, sudden, the, human, brains, the psychosocial, level, layer, just, synced, up and, all, of, a, sudden, we're, all, engaging the, same, pattern, of, behavior because, that's, what, humans, do yeah, i, mean, we, see, this, at, um, you, know like, at, raves, and, and, that, like, there's certain, circumstances, where, like, people just, seem, like, really, in, sync, with, each

other, and, that's, why, i, kind, of, like, to describe the, way, that, desire, like, moves, between person, to, person it's, not, really, a, rational, process, it's more, like, an, energy it's, more, like, it's, it's, caught, by contagion, um, you, know, the, word, contagion really, comes, from, you, know, the, latin root, of, the, word, is, is, you, know, contact right, to, be, in, contact, so, when, we're around, somebody it's, sort, of, a, function, of, proximity so, absolutely, i, mean, this, is, not, to, say that, there's, not, some, objective qualities, to, to, things, that, are, out there, um you, know, i, think, like, i, think, of, like nfts, right, and, and, like, i, think, some some, i, can, look, at, and, and, i'm, like, this

is, has, some, objective, value, maybe, it's tied, to, a, physical, asset, or, it, serves some, some, purpose, or, like, it, funds, some like, social, good, or, whatever, and, i, think i, can, make, some, distinctions, there, so it's, not, to, say, that, this, is, totally random, but, there, will, be, a, first, mover um, and, if, the, right, people, sort, of, move second, and, third, and, fourth, and, fifth uh, mimetic, desire, has, let's, call, it, like an, amplification, effect, in, terms, of, it which, almost, shapes, the, perception, of value, i, mean, value, is, largely, it's subjective, right, value, is, subjective, so like, the, memetic, desire, shapes, the perception, of, value, and, then, initiates, a

a, positive, feedback, loop, a, reflexive process through, which, the, the, more, people, join this, the, the, more, the, value, increases luke, can, i, like, so, i, i, don't, want, to jump, into, act, 2, yet, before, we're, ready but, can, i, just, like, illustrate, this point, with, because, nfts, are, just, such, a perfect, example, of, memetic, desire, that, i know, our, listeners, would, be, familiar with, um, have, you, ever, heard, of, a, crypto punk, luke, yeah, these, things, are, yeah okay, so these, look, like um, when, they, first, came, out, i, thought these, were, just, stupid, like, to, be, honest right, i, mean, it's, just, like, pixels, of, a face, like, okay, cool, i, could, buy, that, but like, who, cares but

my, um model, of crypto, punks, has, completely, changed probably, within, the, last, two, years, and the, reason, is, is, because crypto, punks, are, being, used, more, and more, as, sort, of, a, social, status, signal in, a, culture that, um, i, am, a, part, of and, that, i, like, so large, you, know, venture, capitalists, or people, who, are in, defy, circles, d5, degens, or, like, crypto natives, that, i, respect, and, i, like, and, i appreciate, hanging, out, with, and, that listen, to, this, podcast they, have, these, crypto, punks, right, jay-z just, changed, his, profile, shot, to, a picture, of, a, crypto, punk, and, my, world

view, on, these, things, has, completely changed, they've, gone, from, like insignificant, like, pixels to, oh, my, god, i, want, this, like, i, don't want, a, rolex, i, don't, care, about, that, i don't, want, a, porsche, or, a, lambo, i, don't care, but, i, want, a, crypt, i, want, my, own crypto, punk, and, how, much, will, i, pay, for that, i, don't, know, but, this, is, what you're, talking, about, is, this, is, not something, that, i, natively, want, that, came up, through, my, maslow, hierarchy, of, needs biology, like yeah, i, just, thought, that, suddenly, one day, i, woke, up, and, i, wanted, a, crypto, punk i'm, doing, it, through, mimicry, right, it's because, i, want, to, copy, all, of, these people, that, i, like, and, respect, and, that are, part, of, my, my, social, group, so is, is, that, right, is, this, just, like

memetic, desire, happening, in, um, in, in crypto, world yeah, i, mean, what, what, are, they, going, for these, days, is, like, some, astronomical, 35 000 yeah, each, for, one, yeah, yeah, i, think, they they, differ, right, like, depending, on the, qualities, of, the, crypto, punk, so if, i, understand, them, right, there, are some, objective, qualities, that you, know, are, part, of, the, narrative, about why, some, cost, more, than, others, right right, right, but, yeah, each, each, one, has their, own, property, some, of, them, are smoking, a, pipe, some, of, them, are, aliens some, of, them, are, zombies, each, one, has their, own property, list, and, each, one, can, have, like two, properties, or, six, properties, and there's, there's, very, much, this coordination, game, as, to, like, there, are

some, properties, are, just, more, valuable than, others there's, no, rhyme, or, reason, as, to, why right, right, so, i, mean, in, this, case, i think, you, know, it's, pretty, easy, to, see that, mimetic, desire, the, imitation, of desire, has, created the, scarcity, that, has, driven, up, the price, of, the, crypto, punks like, they, wouldn't, be, the, fact, that, the pixels, on, the, screen, we, consider, extreme extremely, scarce, goods, that, that, very few, people, can, afford is, itself, a, product, of memetic, desire, so, there's, like, objective scarcity, there, are, things, that, are objectively, scarce, in, the, world, right like, water, in, some, places, is, objectively scarce, and, then, there's, subjective

scarcity, and, i, would, say, subjective scarcity, is, usually, the, product of, memetic, desire, it's, only, scarce because, we, want, what, other, people, want and, that's, i, think, it's, an, important distinction, to, make luke, i, think, it's, about, time, that, we, get into, act, two, of, the, show, because, we're already, starting, to, dabble, with, it, but first, the, last, topic, that, we, need, to cross, off, the, list, before, we, get, there is, the, concept, of, a, rivalrous, desire because, that's, where, i, think, we, really introduce, the, topic, of, scarcity, can, you walk, us, through, rivalrous, mimetic, desire is, that, what, happens, when, david, and, i want, the, exact, same, crypto, punk, so, what happens that's, exactly, what, happens, yeah, so, so gerard, thought, that

you, know, rivalry, was, at, the, heart, of, the human, condition was, a, fundamental, principle, of, human behavior, that, we, don't, acknowledge enough we, don't, like, to, think, that, rivalry, is pervasive, throughout, the, world, but, when you, when, you, realize, that, rivalry, is largely, a product, of, memetic, desire you, start, to, understand, why, and, you, see how, how, much, rivalry drives, decisions, and, can, be, explanatory for, decisions, that, on, the, surface, like aren't, rational, or, don't, make, any, sense right, like, why, would, this, political party, like, do, something, that, doesn't seem, to, benefit, anybody, well, the, answer might, be, because, it, hurts, their, rival while, also, hurting, them, at, the, same, time

and, that's, like, a, satisfying, thing, right so, so, rivalry, so, how, do, we, get, to rivalry, and, like, what, does, rivalry, have to, do, with, memetic, desire, it's, pretty simple, step, so, rivalry, is, like stage, two, of, of, gerard's, memetic, theory and, it's, like, memetic, desire, is, at, the heart, it's, the, fundamental, nature, of human, desire, so, humans, look, to, other people, to, understand, what, to, want, and, we imitate, their, desires, we, want, something because, they, want, it, that's, an, important distinction, to, make, too, it's, not, like, we both happen, to, arrive at, the, same, object, randomly we, arrived, at, wanting, that, object because, another, person wants, it

okay, and, it, endows, that, object, with, some like, almost, magical, sacred, value, like you, can, imagine, the, settlers, going, out to, the, west, you, got, two, guys, that, like come, on, nevada, for, the, first, time, and one, of, them, just, runs, over, to, a, certain plot, of, land, and, is, just, fascinated, with it, and, thinks, it's, just, the, best, plot, of land, he's, ever, seen, the, other, guy's, got the, whole, state, but, because, that, other guy, who, might, be, five, or, ten, years, older than, him, is, really, good, at, what, he, does really, thinks, that, this, one, is, special because, of, that, the, other, guy, becomes fixated, on, it, even, though, if, he, just turned, around, he'd, have, you, know, 100, 000 acres, to, play, with luke, do, you, ever, watch, have, you, ever watched, like, uh, babies, like, play, like

you, know, it's, 12, months, old, or, so, to, 18 months, old, um, they'll, be, like, sitting, in a, in, a, circle, they'll, be, like, piles, of toys, kids, have, tons, of, toys, right, all these, toys and, they'll, pick, one, up, uh, and immediately, the, baby, sitting, across, from them, the, little, kid, sitting, across, from them with, all, of, these, toys, on, the, floor, that they, could, pick, from, they, don't, want, the toys, on, the, floor, they, want, the, toy, that the, other, child, just, picked, up right, that's, what, you're, talking, about this, is, the, hardwired, biology, that's with, us, from like, birth, even, before, birth, that's, what you're, talking, about, that's, the, rivalry i, only, want, this, thing because, you, have, it yes, i, mean, if, you, look, at, the, classic girardian, example, of, this, is, a, room, full of, toddlers, that, have, more, toys, than

than, any, of, them, could, possibly, play with, the, minute, one, of, the, children picks, up, a, toy, and, shows, enough fascination, with, it, without, a, doubt, a second, child, will, all, of, a, sudden, forget about, whatever, he, cared, about, before, and become, interested, in, that, toy, and because, there's, now, a, second, person, who desires, it there's, definitely, going, to, be, a, third kid, and, then, the, third, kid, makes, it easier, for, the, fourth, kid, to, want, it, and before, you, know, it, they're, fighting, over the, same, toy, and, they'll, have, a, hundred all, around, them, now, why, did, that, first you, know, cute, little, girl, pick, up, the red, fire, truck, in, the, first, place, when she, didn't, have, a, model, well, it, could, be because, like, her, dad, is, a, cool, fireman um, so, you, know, he's, her, model, or, it could, just, be, because, the, color, red, like

really, made, it, stand, out, because, all, the other, toys, are, dull, right, it's, like, why certain, birds, are, attracted, to, certain flowers, right, so, there, could, be, some fundamental base, like, even, a, biological, basis, for that, but, once, that, happens, the, mimesis kicks, in, and, medic, desire, just, naturally leads, to, rivalry, if, you, think, about, it you, know, because, we're, imitating, what another, person, wants, we've, naturally made, ourselves, rivals, to, them, in, the sense, that, they're, now, an, obstacle, uh for, for, our, possessing, it, um, because, we want, the, same, thing, so, if, the fundamental, nature, of, human, desire, is memetic, then, there's, some, principle, of rivalry, at, the, very, heart, of, the, human condition, especially, because, we, normally

don't, realize, that, we, desire, things, like this, and, we, kind, of, just, go, through, life perpetually um, we're, kind, of, like, obstacle, addicts okay, in, the, sense, that uh, if, somebody, else, doesn't, want something we, begin, to, doubt, whether, it, has, a, lot of, value, so, we, kind, of, are, always looking, for, people, to, to, want, things, and that, just, causes, us to, to, to, have um you, know, to, kind, of, constantly, be looking, for, new, rivals, right, and, if, we don't, have, one, it's, an, uncomfortable place, to, be, sometimes, okay, so, we've established, memetic, desire, i, think, we have, a, firm, understanding, of, that, we've talked, about, rival, risk, desire, now here's, the, bridge, from, act, one, to, act

two, that, i, think, is, important, before, we get, into, the, crypto, concepts, that, is this, we, now, have, this, new, technology that, is, called, the, internet um, crypto, is, kind, of, act, two, on, the internet, we, would, say, but, act, one, in, in and, of, itself, is, a, communication protocol, now, we, have, social, media, we have, this, global, communication, platform we, have, influencers, on, tick, tock, and twitter, and instagram, and, all, over, the, place, what impact, did, the, internet, or, does, the internet, have, on, our, memetic, desires does, it, accelerate, it, is, it, like, a steroid, for, them i, think, we're, still, kind, of, figuring

that, out, and, i, would, say, the, answer, is kind, of ambivalent, i, think, it, it, it, both, helps and, hurts, memetic, desire what, do, i, mean, by, that, well the, internet, has, given, us, access, to, more models, of, desire, than, ever, before um, you, know, if, you, lived, 100, years, ago if, you, lived, in, a, small, town the, total, number, of, people, modeling desires, to, you, could, be, like 15, or, 20, people, like, in, your, in, your school now, we, have, smartphones, we, have, mimetic machines, in, our, pocket, that, allow, us, to see, like, what, everybody, else, is, wanting at, like, all, hours, of, the, day, um, we, have billions, of, models, so, in, a, sense, it's amplified, an, exacerbated, memetic, desire

because, it's, just, all, around, us, all, the time, and, i, think, the, pandemic, probably accelerated, it, too as, we, were, kind, of, cooped, up, um, i, mean, i i, scrolled, social, media, probably, more than, i, ever, have, and, you, know, you, see people, different, lifestyles, and, doing different, things, and, quitting, their, jobs and, getting, dogs, and, you, know, moving, to austin, and, all, the, in, miami, uh, you, know and, it's, like, very, memetically, i, might add, in, most, cases, um, and, it's, like, this amplifies, memetic, desire, like, never before, is, like, have, humans, had, access, to so, many, memetic, models, and, i, don't, think we, quite, know, what, that's, doing, to, us, i don't, know, if, we, have, the i, don't, know, if, like, the, the, the, human development, has, kept, up, with, the technological, development, right, like

like, in, terms, of, virtues, morally speaking, i, don't, think, we, know, quite what, it's, doing, to, our, desires, there's, a lot, of, talk, about, what, social, media, is doing, to, us, neurologically, the, dopamine hits, and, and, and, the, addictiveness, of, it i, don't, think, that, enough, people, are talking, about, what, it's, done, to, memetic desire, what, it's, done, to, the, way, that, we desire the, the, flip, side, of, that, the, one, way that, social, media, might, be diffusing, memetic, desire, even, as, it amplifies, it is, that, we, can, now, sort, of, distribute and, defuse, memetic, rivalry, across billions, of, people, and, bits, and, bytes and, nodes so

you, know, you, can, swap, out, models, for another, one, very, easily, whereas, before two, people, that, were, kind, of, in, a memetic, rivalry, in, a, town, they, just, go to, a, duel, or, something, like, that, right um so, so, in, a, sense, like, the, the, the internet, like you, know, like, diffuses, the, tension, all right, it, like, diffuses, the, things, that would, have, escalated, to, extremes right, in, the, wild, west, or, something, now like, the, the, the, it's, it, defuses, memetic violence, is, probably, the, way, that, gerard would, say, it because, there's, always, another, model, and we, can't, we, can't, easily, become, fixated on, one, we, just, go, find, another, one, so it's, this, weird, paradox and, i, think, peter, thiel, has, sort, of

described, the, technology, in, the, same, way like, it's, both, exacerbating, and, also it's, also, a, weird, mechanism, for diffusing um, some, of, the, the, negative, consequences of, memetic, desire, like, in, in, ancient societies, they, they, just, you, know, have to, sacrifice, somebody, or, something, like that, right, to, diffuse, memetic, tension with, technology, um, we, can, do, all, kinds of, things, right, you, can you, can i, don't, know, you, can, cancel, people, you can, go, just, go, do, you, can, block, them, you can, mute, them, there's, all, different exactly, and, it's, relatively, quick, and painless, and, then, everybody, moves, on, so i, think, it's, it's, it's, both, it's, a double-edged, sword, hey, guys, i, hope

you're, enjoying, the, episode, thus, far this, was, really, a, mind-expanding, episode and, really, happy, we, were, able, to, talk, to luke, about, some, of, these, subjects, in, the second, half, of, the, show, we, get, into, the subject, of, crypto, punks, after, we're, done parsing, apart, the, biological, relevancy to, what, luke, is, talking, about, we, get into, crypto, punks, and, nfts, we, bring, up our, old, episode, on, legitimacy, with vitalik, and, overall, talk, about, how market, forces, are, largely, an, effect, of memetic, desire, and, all, the, other, topics of, conversation, about, how, the, crypto industry, is, impacted, and, relevant, to, the conversation, of, mimetic, desire, all, of that, is, coming, in, the, second, half, of, the show, but, before, we, get, there, we, have, to take, a, moment, to, talk, about, some, of these, fantastic, sponsors, that, make, this

show, possible, bankless, is, proud, to, be supported, by, uniswap, uniswap, is, a, new paradigm, in, asset, exchange infrastructure, instead, of, a, cumbersome order, book, system, where, trades, are matched, with, other, humans, uniswap, is, an autonomous, piece, of, software, on, ethereum which, is, what, ryan, and, i, call, a, money robot, no, human, counterparties, or centralized, intermediaries, just autonomous, code, on, ethereum, input, the token, you, want, to, sell, and, receive, the token, you, want, to, buy, something, brand new, in, the, uni-swap, ecosystem, is, the uniswap, grants, program, is, now, accepting applications, for, grants we, have, been, saying, this, for, a, while, and will, say, it, again, dows, have, money, and they, are, in, need, of, labor, if, you, think that, you, have, something, to, contribute, to

the, uni-swapped, out, apply, for, a, grant, to uni-swap, just, look, at, the, size, of, the uniswap, treasury, it's, almost, 3, billion dollars, this, mountain, of, capital, is looking, for, labor, do, you, have, something of, value, to, contribute, to, the, uniswap dow, no, matter, how, big, or, small, your, idea is, you, can, apply, for, a, uni, grant, at unigrants.org, and, help, steer, uniswap, in the, direction, that, you, think, it, should go, that's, exactly, what, we, did, to, get uniswop, to, be, a, sponsor, for, bankless, and you, can, do, the, same, for, your, project thank, you, uniswap, for, sponsoring bankless, gemini, is, the, world's, most trusted, cryptocurrency, exchange, i've been, a, customer, of, gemiini, since, i, first got, into, crypto, in, 2017, and, it's, been, my main, exchange, of, choice, to, make, my crypto, buys, and, sells, gemini, is

available, in, all, 50, states, and, in, over 50, countries, worldwide, and, on, gemini there, are, markets, for, over, 30, various different, crypto, assets, including, many of, the, hot, defy, tokens, and, it's, one, of the, few, exchanges, that, has, liquid, dye markets, gemini, just, launched, their, earn program, where, you, can, earn, up, to, 7.4 interest, on, 26, various, crypto, assets, if you're, tired, of, paying, fees, and, defy, or you, don't, want, to, worry, about, defy exploits, but, you, still, want, to, earn interest, on, your, crypto, assets, gemini earn, is, the, product, for, you, another product, i'm, stoked, to, get, my, hands, on, is the, gemini, crypto, back, credit, card, which gives, you, three, percent, cash, back, on, all of, your, purchases, but, paid, to, you, in your, preferred, crypto, asset, when, i, get my, gemini, credit, card, i'm, going, to, make

sure, that, i, get, my, cash, back, in, east, so whenever, i, buy, something, i, get, a, little bit, of, eath, bonus, back, to, me, at, the, same time, you, can, open, up, a, free, account, in under, three, minutes, at, gemiini.com go, bank, list, and, if, you, trade, more, than 100, within, the, first, 30, days, after, sign up, you'll, be, gifted, a, free, 15, bitcoin bonus, check, them, out, at, gemiini.com, go bankless so, so, this, is, really, the, bridge, of, where we, are, so, we've, got, this, thing, that, is baked, into, us, biologically, that undergirds, everything, it, is, the, base layer, of, everything and, that, is, memetic, desire, now, we, have this, communication, technology, that amplifies, mimetic, desire, propagates, it for, the, good, and, the, bad, but, certainly

makes, it, digital, as, well, this, seems, to us, to, be, like, act, one, of, the, internet but, there's, also, an, act, two, of, the internet, and, this, tees, up, the conversation, around, crypto, so, what, we always, say, on, on, on, bankless, is, like, uh crypto, is, a, technology, that, adds scarcity, back, to, the, internet, in, the internet, the, communication, technology everything, was, abundant, you, can, copy, and paste, every, gif, in, jpeg, but, crypto, is, a scarcity, technology, going, back, to, what david, was, saying, and, so, if, the, internet as, a, communication, prop protocol, was, about, propagating, our memetic, desires, crypto, is, about valuing our, memetic, desires, turning, them, into property, that, can, be, bought, and, sold, and so, this, affects, money, this, affects

markets nfts are, an, example, of, this, collectibles, as well, so, we, want, to, go, through, all, of those, things maybe, let's, start, with, with, money, i don't, know, luke, if, you've, given, much thought, to, like, what, money, is, but, we think, a, lot, about, it, on, bank, list, and, we think, um, about, you, know, like, the, the root, level, the, the, base, layer, of, what money, is, a, lot, in, crypto, in, general, in fact, like, bitcoin, is, a, project, to, kind of, redefine, reinvent, money, and, it's built, from, the, bottom, up, it's, almost built, through, memetic, desire, why, do, i want, bitcoin, because, so, and, so, has bitcoin, right, what, is, money, through, the lens, of, memetic, desire i, think, that, money, is, probably, one, of

the, best, ways, that, we, have, to measure memetic, desire, it's, not, that, you, know money, is, the, exclusive, measurement, of memetic, desire, but, i, think, that, money, is is, probably, the, most, objective, one, that we, have and, you, know, i, don't, know, if, i, ever start, some, you, know, study, for mimetic, mimetics, and, culture, someday it's, going, to, have, to, focus, on, the markets, uh, and, on, in, on, the, financial markets, right, um, because, it's, just, the best, proxy, that, we, have, to, like understand, what's, going, on, it's, a, way, of keeping, score, it's, a way, to, measure these, things, especially, debt, that, is really, interesting, if, you, want, to, find out, how, much, memetic, desire, somebody, has

look, at, how, much, depth, they, have, right that's, that's, pretty, good, it's, a, pretty good, uh, pretty, good, indication, right um uh, medic, desire, that, exceeds, their, their ability, to, uh, pay, for, it, so um, i, think, that um there's, some, interesting, questions around, you, know, like, what, george, gilder would, say, right, that, like, you, know, money is, basically, a, function, of, of, like, time um, and, i've, given, some, thought, to, that, i mean, i, i, don't, i'd, be, interested, to, hear you've, had, a, few, days, now, to, think, about this, and, i'd, love, to, hear, your perspective, on, it, one, of, the, interesting things, with mimetic, desire, and, memetic, rivalry, and, i you, know, i, think, about, like, monetary

maximalists, and, things, like, that is memetic, desire very, quickly um, untethers uh, things, from, any, kind, of, objective criteria, i, guess, that, i, mean, that, can, be good, and, bad um, but, it, can, it, can, completely, sort, of like, untether um uh, pursuits from, the, thing, itself, right, because, the the, the, focus, of, attention, begins, to, be the, the, rival, or, the, model, rather, than the, thing, itself, the, things, can, be swapped, out, the, relatively interchangeable, what, becomes, important is, is, the, rival, now, now, whether, the rival, is, the, like, the, federal, reserve system, whether, the, rival, is, like, an

alternate, cryptocurrency um, i, don't, know, but, this, is, a fundamental, feature, of, of, like, mimesis and, memetic, rivalry, is, that, as, it continues, it, usually, is, untethered uh, from, any, kind, of, objective, objective criteria, and, i, find, that pretty, interesting, so, like, trying, to trying, to, separate, or, like, i, think mimesis, falls, on, a, spectrum i, think, i, think, it, falls, on, a, spectrum and, that's, a, good, way, to, think, about, it so, looking, at, like, to, what, extent, um, are things, becoming, super, memetic, and, to what, extent, are, they, grounded, in, in something, right, like, something, real maybe, that's, just, an, understanding, of like, how, money, and, scarcity, and, time value, of, money, works, or, is, it

is, there, a, cryptocurrency, that's, solely solely, and, mean, and, solely, about marketing, and, that, that, to, me, is, is really, interesting luke, you, you, said, some, uh, words you, had, some, word, choice, i, thought, that was, really, really, interesting, that reminds, me, of, from, a, number, of conversations, i've, had, with, bitcoiners and, other, people, who've, thought, about money, at, a, deep, level, you, use, the, word measure, as, in, money, is, like, a, very strong, measure, of, memetic, desire, um, and bitcoin, proudly, has, a, 21, million, hard cap, because, it, offers, a, measuring, stick for, value and, it's, it's, supposed, to, have, this really, strong, ability, to, measure, the value, of, other, things, because, it, has

this, you, know, stable, supply, that, never ever, changes, uh, and, then, the, other, thing you, talked, about, is, that, like, the, whole concept, about, money, is, that, the, object itself, what, that, object, is, is, not important, it's, more, about, the, fact, that other, people, want, it, so, to, me, to, answer the, question, of, like, what, is, money through, the, lens, of, memetic, desire, it's some, random, object, that, humans, have collectively, decided, as, to, be the, instantiation, of, rival, risk, mimetic desire, in, the, first, place, as, in, money, is the, object, that, everyone, wants, because everyone, else, wants, it, and, some, monies are, good, and, bad, right, like, some, monies can, be, minted, by, some, central, party, and that, ruins, the, game, a, little, bit, right

because, it's, easy, for, one, party, to, get their, hands, on, money, and, it's, hard, for another, and, so, bitcoin, has, been, this exemplar, asset, that, has, actually specifically, been, trying, to, push, out, all use, cases, of, the, bitcoin, blockchain, that aren't, using, bitcoin, as, money, um, and, and bitcoiners, who, have, dawson, talked, about one, of, the, flaws, of, gold, is, that, you, can actually, use, it, in, industry, as, an objectively, useful, resource, and, that's, a flaw, of, gold, not, a, benefit, of, gold, in bitcoin, we, want, to, push, out, all, utility out, of, the, bitcoin, blockchain, that, is not, using, btc, the, asset, as, money, because btc, the, asset, is, supposed, to, be, the instantiation, of, mimetic, desire, it's

supposed, to, be, the, one, thing, that everyone, wants, in, the, world, because everyone, else, wants, it, and, because, it's has, this, very, flat, topology, there's, no issuer, it's, just, a, protocol, it's, fair it's, and, it's, it's, a, it's, a, game, that everyone, can, play, and, participate, in mimetic, desire, without, having, that, game be, like, tainted, or, ruined, by, some, sort of, like, central, party, that's, mine, that's my, like, lens, of, how, i've added, you, know, view, of, medic, desire, and money so, bitcoin, is, the, instant, as, the instantiation, of, memetic, desire, as, the new, object yeah, so, so, that, is, fascinating, and, so, if that's, the, case, then

i, mean, it's, this, it's, an, it's, a relatively, abstract, thing, then, that, has become, the, object, so, is, it, then, you're is, it, important, that, there's, a, fixed that, there's, a, there's, a, there's, a, max limit, of, bitcoin, that, can, ever, be, mined does, that, then, become, important, as, a, way of, um, either well, i'll, stop, there, like, is, that, is that, an, important, feature, when, it, comes to, the, the, memetic, desire, part, i, i, think so, and, we, can, we, can, talk, about, many many, cryptocurrencies, follow, this, model but, the, bitcoiner, narrative, is, that, like the, hard, cap really, puts, the, steroids, into, that, game of, rivalry, it, makes, you, really, really want, that, that, bitcoin, because, of, its promise, of, scarcity, right, so, if, this, is

a, rivalrous, game, where, we, are, all, trying to, compete, to get, as, much, money, as, possible, which, is largely, what, most, people, spend, most, of their, decades, doing that, game, is, really, souped, up, when, uh, we are, talking, about, a, hard-capped, asset there's, a, there's, a, law, in, economics called, gresham's, law, where, you, spend your, bad, money, and, get, that, money, drives on, good, money, yeah, uh, uh, no, good, money drives, out, bad, money, right, uh, and, and, so bitcoin, has, like, a, theoretical, good money, it's, going, to, just, have, it's, going to, have, the, same, like, demand, as, money, as other, monies, but, people, will, want, the bitcoin, money, more, than, like, the, us dollar, money, because, the, us, dollar, is being, printed, bitcoins, not, being, printed and, so, the, game, of, rivalrous, desire, is

just, stronger yeah, so, it's, almost, like, a, bet, on rivalrous, desire, in, a, sense, right, it does, it, does, better, the, more, memetic rivalry, there, is, and, like, i, guess, like you, know, that's, a, moral, question, right like, whether, that's, a, good, thing um, or, or, a, bad, thing, right, but, it's certainly, good, for, bitcoin, there's, no doubt, about, that, i, think, what, you, know one, of, the, things, i, think, about, is i, i, find, people, becoming, a, little nihilistic, about, money, you, know, like when, people, can, become, extremely, rich, or extremely, poor, overnight, and, it, doesn't seem, to, be, sort, of, like, tied, to, any, kind of, like, real, world, you, know, value creation, or, something, like, that, like, and i've, had, companies, i've, started, that have, created, a, tremendous, flash valuation, and, then, like, gone, away

overnight, which, made, me, fairly nihilistic, about, money, for, a, while, right like, it, makes, it, makes, it, hard, for, you to, like, put, your, hand, to, the, to, the metaphorical, plow, and, like, do, the, hard work, when, you, know, that, you, could, like make, a, trade, or, invest, in, something, and blow, it, up, so, i, think, that, the relationship, between, um, value, creation and, and, new, money, creation, or, or, the creation, of, value, in, the, creation, of money, and, the, way, that, money, is exchanged, is, is, an, important, discussion i, haven't, quite, worked, it, out, yet, but, i think, that, the, the, cap, of, bitcoin, i've thought, about, it, in, that, particular context yeah, i'm, curious, what, you, think, about this, too, it's, like, so, if, you, are like, take, the, example, of, of, gold, right so

um, how, did, gold, come, to, be, a, money, right like, just, we, don't, know, that's, lost, to history, like, there's, no, record, of, how gold, like, first, started, being, valued, by by, humans, right, we, have, maybe, some kingdoms, that, are, you, know, based, on and, gold, we, have, some, records, there, but like, if, if, if, you, were, to, think, about, it through, the, lens, of, mimetic, desire, does that, provide, a, clue, this, is, what, i, think about, like, you, know, cryptocurrency, right so you, know, you, turn, on, tv i, you, know i, grew, up, with, like, um scrooge, mcduck, who's, diving, into, a, pool of, of, gold, like, it's, cartoon, when, i'm young, i'm, older, see, rap, videos, and, like we're, wearing, the, bling, we've, got, the

gold, chain, it's, all, about, the, gold what's, interesting, about, that, is, like gold, is, just, a, what, is, gold, man, it's just, a, rock, like, who, cares, it's it, you, know, has, some, uh, properties, that make, it difficult, to duplicate, of, course, impossible, to duplicate, but, so, does, cryptocurrency, so does, bitcoin, if, if, these, rap, videos, and these, scrooge, mcduck, cartoons, started, um projecting, memetic, desire, in, the, form, of like, bitcoin, or, ether, or, some, other cryptocurrency, instead, and, that, was imbued, into, our, social, consciousness like that, could, easily, become, a, money, and that's, kind, of, what, what

like, if, you, were, to, think, about, run through, the, thought, exercise, luke, of, how does, a, money, become, a, money, if, it's, not top, down, pushed, from, a, central government, right and, it, seems, to, me, like, the, lens, of memetic, desire, is, kind, of, an, answer, to that, question, it's somebody, buys, it, we've, got, rivalrous, you know, competition, start, talking, about, how much, you, have, how, much, it's, worth, price goes, up, like, this, is, a, ground, up, new money, being, born, a, new, asset, being, born and, it's, almost, like, a, microcosm, of, what we're, just, talking, about, with, uh, with the, nfts, it's, like, and, what's interesting, to, me, is, like, you, got, act one, which, is, the, internet, accelerator propagation, right, and, now, you, blend, that with, act, two, which, is, we, create, scarcity

we, can, value, mimetic, desire, on, the internet, digitally, and, then, what, do, you get, well, you, get, oh, my, god, crypto, crypto punks, in, five, years created, a, a, little, gif, that, is, now, worth 32k, each right, and, like, how, fast, did, that, happen and, why, did, it, happen, so, fast, it's because, of, this, confluence, of, internet technologies, anyway, any, thoughts, on, that um, i, think, that, mimetic, desire, as, part of, the, genesis, of, why, we, have legitimate, money, at, all, is, really fascinating, right, like, money, in, some sense, is, a, product, of, specialization like, we, need, money, to, exchange, and, why do, we, want, to, exchange, because, we, want

what, what, somebody, else, has, and, why would, we, want, what, somebody, else, has, if we, weren't, memetic, in, some, way, right, if their, if, memetic, desire, didn't, exist so, i, mean, to, sort, of, riff, off, of, paul graham, here, when, he, says, like, well, what you, want, is, not, money, what, you, want, is wealth, like, you, know, you, could, have, if you, had, a, machine, that, could, make anything, that, you, wanted, and, do everything, that, you, wanted, then, you wouldn't, have, any, need, for, money, right it's, like, wealth, you, know, it's, like somebody, that, lives, somewhere, and, and has, everything, they, need, perfect, family and, home um, and, they're, not, let's, say, they're, not exposed, to, anybody, else, right, so, they have, no, memetic, desire, they, have, wealth right, like, wealth, is, wealth, is, what, you want

um, and, it's, not, always, the, same, thing, as your, as, as, the, money, that, you, have, right they're, not, always, equivalent, things like, you, could, have, a, billion, dollars and, be, in, the, middle, of, antarctica, and you, wouldn't, be, able, to, buy, anything, or do, anything, with, it, right, i, mean, let's assume, you're, not, on, the, internet, right so, like, it, wouldn't, it, wouldn't, matter right, it, would, be, so, like, in, other, words you, know, paul, says, like, wealth, is, what you, want, why, think, about, this, with memetic, desire, like, wealth, is, what, you want, and, i, could, be, like, wealthy, and, in terms, of, like, i, have, everything, i, want, i have, my, home, i, have, my, children, i, have all, the, food, that, i, need, if self-sustaining but, i, i, look, around, and, i, see, other people, that, want, other, things and, through, memetic, desire, i, begin, to

want, them, we, need, a, medium, of, exchange right, um, and, that's, why, we, need, money right, because, like, you, don't, want, my, you know, two, ducks, and, i, don't, want, your, two apples, or, whatever, right, so, we, needed something, and, yeah, maybe, why, we, landed on, certain, things, was largely, random um uh there's, a, whole, connection, to sacred, here, like, like, a, lot, of, money that the, earliest, money, was, always, found near, temp, like, sacred, temples, of, worship because, one, of, the, first, reasons, why people, needed, money, was, that, they, needed animals, to, to, sacrifice, and, they, needed to, to, buy, the, animals, so, the, for, it seems, like, in, accorded, to, renee, gerard the, first, systems, of, exchange, happened

for, the, purposes, of, religious, sacrifice but, we, get, totally, sidetracked, by talking, about, that, um, so, so, i, think, that memetic, desire, is, probably, responsible for, the, genesis, of, money i'm, just, talking, off, the, cuff, here, but, i think, that, that's, probably, a, whole, book that, i'd, have, you, know, somebody, left, to write, something maybe, start, with, some, sub, stack, posts, uh you've, got, a, great, sub, stack, luke, um link, to, that, in, show, notes, by, those, guys well, let's, talk, to, the, let's, talk, about the, next, i, think, item, that, um, relates very, closely, to, crypto, but, also, has obviously, a, rich, history, in, traditional world, which, is, markets, because, we, talked about, money, to, quote, uh, you, know, peter thiel, again peter, thiel, says, money, is, the, bubble that, never, pops, right, and, of, course, in

financial, markets, we, have, all, sorts, of different, bubbles, that, come, and, go, and of, course, we, have, crypto, which, is, kind of, creating, markets, out, of, everything as, much, as, possible, at, the, speed, of, the internet, let's, talk, a, little, bit, about bubbles, and, markets, like, tulipmania, or dot, com, com, bubble, or, even, read, recent posts, that that, you, authored, about like, meme, stocks, being, kind, of, a, a bubble, are, these, all, products, of, memetic desire, is, this, why, we, are, buying, these stocks, and, these, assets, and, taking, part in, these, bubbles, what's, your, lens, on that i, don't, know, if, memetic, desire, is, the sole, reason, but, i, i, think, it's

impossible, to, understand the, extreme, volatility, in, any, market without, understanding, memetic, desire, and i, just, look, at, like, analyst, after analyst, on, cnbc, and, these, pundits, and they're, just, like, you, know, this, is lacking, in, all, objectivity, this, is irrational, they, hate, it's, like, yeah, it breaks, their, brains, yeah, and, it, breaks their, brains, and, they're, just, like looking, for, just, like, this, fundamental like, analysis, and, they're, never, gonna find, it, right, this, is, like, what, rene gerard, calls, the, romantic, lie um and, and, it's, this, notion, that, there's always, a, one-to-one, or, a, direct, line, um like, this, rational, basis, between, people and, the, things, that, they, want, where

we're, not, rational, i, mean, we, are rational, creatures, but, we're, also memetic, creatures, and, i, think, that mimesis, trump's, rationality, like, almost all, of, the, time especially, especially, in, markets, like, we don't, live, in, a, rational, world, we, live in, a, memetic, world, and, if, like, if, if, the guys, in, cnbc, could, just, understand, this um, it, would, just, make, that, make, their lives, a, lot, easier, i, think, um, because yeah, i, mean, like, gerard, said, that, the stock, market, well, i, don't, he, wasn't really, he, died, in, 2015, so, he, didn't really, see, the, rise, of, crypto, he'd, say the, same, thing, about, crypto, he, said, the stock, market, is, the, most, memetic institution the, most, memetic, institution, and, you

know, he, said, like, when, alan, greenspan uses, like, ridiculous, phrases, like, a rational, exuberance, he's, just that's, just, greenspan, speak, for, like, out of, control, like, memetic, desire and, it, happens, on, the, upside, and, it happens, on, the, downside, and, it, usually happens, faster, on, the, downside, even historically, than, on, the, upside, like once, people, start, abandoning uh, everybody, wants, to, abandon, um, because there's, like, some, fear, involved, in, that too, so, like, i, don't, think, that, i'm, not, a memetic, desire, maximalist, where, i, think like, everything, is, explainable, biomedic desire, there's, fear, there's, the, fight, or flight, there's, all, kinds, of, things, but, i just, don't, think, you, can, understand gamestop, um, meme, stocks, uh, some, of, the

crazy uh, parabolic, rises, in, crypto, without understanding, memetic, desire, because there, are, people, that, got, in without, they, didn't, know, like, a, damn thing, about, gamestop, certainly, not, about the, fundamentals, or, about, crypto, but they, want, in, because, other, people, want in, and, then, when, you, want, in, like, the game, then, becomes, to, generate, as, much memetic, desire, as, possible, after, you're in, because, you, then, profit, from, the, new mimesis, that, you, generate, so, in, a, sense it's, like, create, a, meme, generate, as, much medic, desire, as, you, can, and, you, know that's, certainly, becoming, kind, of, the the, game, and, some, know, how, to, play, it better, than, others, but, without, an understanding, of, a, medic, desire, i, think it's, harder, to, play, david, has, some, gme

why'd, you, buy, david, did, you, buy, because of, memetic, desire, oh, i i, bought, it, to stick, it, to, the, man, um, but, maybe, there's a, uh, mimetic, so, that's, so, that, that's memetic, desire, that's, called, memetic rivalry, man well what, you, just, said, we, see, a, lot, of, in the, crypto, space, we, got, the, the, chain link, army, we, got, the, xrp, or, the, the excuse, me, the, link, marines, we, have, the xrp, army, the, the, cardano, army, even, like the, bitcoin, maximalist, and, even, to, some degree, we, do, this, in, the, ethereum, side of, things, as, well, as, like, we, all, try, and like, you, know, rewrite, elaborate, like medium, articles, or, or, subsect, posts, as to, like, my, valuation, thesis, for, ether, or ether, is, a, triple, point, asset, ethers, and ultrasound, money, chain, links, go, into, the

moon, these, are, all, competitions, for attention, in, order, to, trigger, mimetic desire, like, these, are, all, communities that, have, all, and, and, one, of, the, i recently, wrote, a, post uh, talking, about, these, this, frog, this frog, like, meme, you, talk, about, with, the traditional, meme, and, the, the, chain, link army, they're, full, of, frogs, and, they're very, homogenous, and, that's, really, the the, crazy, thing, about, them, is, like there's, this, headless, man, brand, this headless, movement, of, all, these, frogs, and they, all, chant, the, same, chance, and, they all, say, the, same, things, and, they're, just a, very, homogenous, cohort, of, people, that are, all, shilling, this, link, token, and it's, this, is, completely, aside, from, the fundamentals, of, the, project, like, the team, is, building, chain, link, and, doing

chain, link, things, and, the, chain, link army, the, link, marines, and, this, frog, army is, just, this, homogeneous, headless, brand of, just, like, mimicry, mimicry, mimicry, uh and, it's, one, of, the, most, fascinating like, social, experiments, i, think, that this, space, has, to, offer yeah, i, mean, like, the, the, way, that mimesis, forms, culture, and, and contributes, to, to, group, cohesion is, is, a, whole, nother, aspect, of, all, of this, right, like the, foundation, of, culture, through mimesis in, crypto, and, politics, in, in towns, and, communities, this, happens, all the, time and, i, think, that, that's, why, you, see tribalism, right, you, know, you, see, mimesis you, know, forming, ideas, and, forming

community, um, there's, always, an, out there's, a, there's, always, an, inside, and outside, uh, you, know, and, gerrard, says, you know, this, is, probably, too, much, to, get into, here, um, but, he, said, that, you, know memetic, desire always, leads, to, some, conflict, that's revolved, resolved, through, through, some kind, of, a, violence, right, so, you, know when, i, when, i, look, at, ethereum, right, it basically, says, there's, a, founding, murder or, some, founding, conflict in, every, sort, of, strong, culture so, in, ethereum, like, maybe, that's, like the, dow, fork, okay, like, i, don't, i, don't know, but, that, like, it, probably contributed, in, some, way, to, like, stronger like, cohesion, among, the, people, that, were on, board, probably, more, so, than, before, so

it's, actually, like, a, fascinating, part, of like, girardi, and, cultural, analysis, where he, says, that, there's, always, some, kind, of like, founding thing, founding, mechanism, that, happened that, resolves, some, memetic, conflict, that actually, contributes, to, the, social cohesion where, other, people, are, looked, at, as, the rivals, and, it, reinforces, the, group identity that, kind, of, feels, like, a, snake, biting its, own, tail, if, we, if, we, take, that, out and, extrapolate, that, to, the, very, very end, uh, because, there's the, the, community, becomes, more, and, more coherent, around, a, specific group, or, specific, ideology, and, if, that gets, too, concentrated, it, can, start, to just, be, too, circular, too, fast, um, and, i'm

i'm, also, starting, to, speak, off, the, cuff here, but, like, what, happens, when, memetic desire, just, goes, to, its, nth, degree, to the, logical, conclusion, like, what, happens then, does, the, thing, explode, it's, like what, what, what, happens, at, the, end, of, the of, the, logical, conclusion, of, my, medic desire, well, gerard's, answer, is, that escape, there's, a, scapegoat, that, the, only way, that, the, out, of, control, mimesis that, feedback, loop, um, is, resolved, is through, a, scapegoat, right, it's, like somebody's, randomly, chosen, right, in, in in, ancient, cultures, the, way, that, that that, it, was, prevented, from, imploding, was to, find, and, expel, or, or, kill, a, scapegoat right, so, it's, the, idea, that, you, know violent, doing, violence, to, somebody, else

saves, us, from, the, internal, violence, it's it's, complicated, um, i, i, do, think, it's relevant, to, the, discussion, um, i, think, we live, in, a, culture, that's, like, a scapegoating, machine, but, we, make, little scapegoats, right, our, scapegoats, are usually, not, like, we, don't, have extravagant, rituals, anymore, but, we, we make, little, ones, all, the, time, so that's, that's, the, last, and, most part, of, memetic, theory, is, that, memetic desire, leads, to, conflict, in, the, way, that humans, have, resolved, conflict, memetic crises, uh, throughout, history, because, i think, you're, right, it, is, like, a, snake biting, its, own, tail, is, through, the scapegoat, mechanism, but, the, scapegoat mechanism, only, fuels, uh, just more, violence, and, and, more, conflict, so, i

think, i, think, we, can, get, off, track, with that, but, i, mean, that, is, gerard's, answer to, the, question, i, just, have, a, quick question, for, you, this, is, like, just, some advice, so, people, come, into, crypto, and they're, always, like, oh, my, god, it's, so tribal, why, is, it, so, tribal, and, like david, and, i, our, answer, to, that, is because, humans, are, tribal, and, guess, what crypto, at, the, base, layer, is, composed, of humans, but, i, have, a, question, for, you, so a, lot, of, cryptocurrencies, many, people would, say, in, fact, we, would, say, bitcoin and, ether, are, kind, of, competing, for to, be, a, money, to, be, a, world, reserve asset, essentially you, could, think, of, them, as, rivalrous, in a, way, like, what's, your, advice, for, these these, communities, to, avoid conflict, because, i, think, in cryptocurrency, it's, like, the, aim, of

cryptocurrencies, really, to decrease, humanity's, reliance, on centralized, parties, right, centralized institutions, we, don't, want, all, of, the eggs in, those, centralized, baskets, that, can control, us and, restrict individual, community, freedoms, right, but we, also, don't, want, to, go, to, tribal, wars one, cryptocurrency, versus, another, and yet, there, is, this, rivalrous, thing, which is, like market, cap, like, total, value, of, the, thing do, i, buy, bitcoin, or, do, i, buy, eth, no, you should, buy, eth, because, xyz um, what's, your, advice, for, these, somewhat rivalrous, tribes, is, there, a, way, to, step away, from, that, rivalry, or, is, this, just

how, it, has, to, play, out well, i, don't, know, what, your, opinion, is on, how, how, it, will, end, um, i, mean, i, guess if, you're, kind, of, a, maxillist, like, it has, to, end, with, one, currency, taking, over and, being, like, the, global, standard, and, i think, that if, that, happens, then, i, i, don't, see um i, don't, see, any, any, way, out, like, if, the if, the, goal, is, for, a, currency, to, become like, the, worldwide, adopted, standard, then i, think, that, the, conflict, has, to, happen and, will, inevitably, happen, if, however, um and, i'm, not, necessarily, even, saying, that that's, like, a, bad, thing, right, it, i'm, not i'm, not, implying, that, that's, bad, i'm

just, saying, that, that's, there's, no, way around, it, somebody, has, to, win, and, and and, the, others, will, have, to, lose, and there, will, be, conflict, along, the, way i, think, there's, another, scenario, and again, i'm, not, making, a, value, judgment, on it, where, there's, a, place, for, more, than one and, you, know, each, one, carves, out, and defines, a, specific, purpose for, for, that, that, currency, um, to, solve some, specific, problem, so, i, i, mean, i'm kind, of, fascinated, by, like, micro currencies, like, there's, there's, like places, in, africa, where, that, that, were like people, have, been, like, dropped, coins, and it's, helped, them, create, little, micro economies, and, i, think, the, the, only, way to, prevent, the, rivalry, is, if, you don't have, the, same, goal, and, if, if, your, goal is, that, everybody, wants, to, become, the

new, global, standard, then, there, will, be if, people, can, sort, of, define, a, specific use, case, and, if, there's, room, for, more than, one, and, they, solve, different problems um, then then, i, i, think, then, that, can, be, avoided i mean, this, goes, back, to, the, way, that peter, thiel, said, he, solved, conflicts, at paypal, he, made, sure, that, you, know, people had, clearly, defined, objectives, and, paths for, and, paths, forward, so, like, that, was just, on, the, human, career, level, and, i think, the, same, is, probably, true, on, the level, of, currency, like, if, you, have, like a, one, a, specific, problem, that, you're trying, to, solve, that, nobody, else, is trying, to, solve then, you're, going, to, avoid, that, if, if you, want, to, be, the, one, true, global currency, then, you're, going, to, have, to

duke, it, out, with, you, know, with, bitcoin and, ethereum, and, you, know, i'm, not, quite sure, how, that, ends that's, that's, an, interesting, uh, approach because, it, really, aligns, with, i, think two, kinds, of uh, approaches, that, people, have, when, they come, into, this, space, like, usually, people come, into, this, the, crypto, space, and, they immediately, resonate, with, monetary maximalism, and, they're, like, oh, yeah, i'm a, monetary, maximalist, i'm, gonna, i'm gonna, purchase, the, thing, that, i, think, is money, usually, those, people, just, decide that, it's, either, bitcoin, or, ether, and then, that's, the, game, that, they, play, or there's, like, these, uh, what, i, kind, of call, poly, chainers, or, or, you, know, the you, know, many, many, blockchains, many, many tokens, which goes, a, little, bit, closer, to, what, you

were, saying, in, the, in, the, latter, half which, is, you, know, each, token, can, find some, way, to, instantiate, its, own, value for, its, own, purpose, that's non-competitive, with, money, and, i, kind, of actually, think, that, that's, more, or, less the, ethereum, app, layer, right, like, we have, the, uniswap, token, which, governs over, the, uniswep, exchange, we, have, the compound, token, which, governs, over, the compound, money, market and, these, are, i, wouldn't, call, them currencies, they, are, definitely, not fighting, to, fight, the, whole, monetary, ima money, token, but, they, are building, out, something, useful, of, value that, that, is, what, they, are, for, and, it's also, still, leaving, the, game, of, monetary maximalism, to, be, played, right, and, so, um to, some, degree, i, think, the, concept, of

monetary, maximalism is, talking, about, the, concept, of, memetic desire, before, people, were, even, allowed even, knew, to, to, call, it, that, but, people generally, had, this, gist, that, like, there was, going, to, be, one, single, shelling point, of, money, no, matter, what, uh, and, i actually, think, both, sides, of, what, you just, said, are both, happening, at, the, same, time, like, one is, more, or, less, the, ethereum, app, layer these, are, capital, assets, that, govern over, protocols, and, then, there's, the money, that, undergirds, this, whole, entire thing yeah, yeah, i, mean, so, you, made, a, one really, good, import, point, and, it's, that like, everybody, knows, about, memetic desire, but, most, people, don't, have, a, name for, it, right, we're, just, like, naming giving, something, a, name, that, exists, and

we, we, know, that, it, exists, and, i, think that, the, the, app, layer, of, ethereum, is, a really important, thing because, that, solves, the, problem, i, mean i've, talked, to, some, some, folks, in, the crypto, space, like, i, think, at, bancore, for instance, and, there, was, this, idea, that like, we're, all, going, to, be, walking around, with, like, 10, 000, different currencies, on, our, phone, and, like, we, walk in, one, place, and, you, know, we, pay, with this, and, there's, real, time, exchange, i just, don't, see, that, happening, i, mean, i think, like, the, app, layer, of, ethereum, is a, far, better, solution, uh, than, that, and, i think, i, think, it's, tackling, similar things luke, i, want, to, i, want, to, backtrack really, quick, because, there's, uh, we, we've touched, on, this, uh, this, subject, a, number of, times, but, i, really, want, to, just, uh

drive, this, point, home, we've, talked, about um how memetic, desire, is, with, us, from, birth like, it's, in, our, dna, it's, in, our, genes it's, in, our, brain, and, we, also, talked about, market, bubbles, um, i, recently, read this, book, called, devil, take, the, hindmost which, is, basically, a, human, history, of market, bubbles, and, my, naive, young, self, i kind, of, thought, that, there, was, the, tulip mania, there, was, the, dot-com, bubble, uh and, then, there, was, like, the, ico, of, 20 the, ico, mania, of, 2017, and, those, are, like the, big, bubbles, that, i, know, about, no, no no, no market, bubbles, go, back, as, far, back, as like, recorded, history, as, possible, and, to the, point, and, i, was, talking, to, the, guy that, even, recommended, me, me, the, book, and

i, was, like, doing, a, little, like, debrief with, him, after, i, read, the, book, is, and, i told, him, even, again, even, before, reading your, book, like, it's, crazy, how, market bubbles, are, just, written, into, our, dna they, just, seem, to, happen, and, like reading, this, book, and, listening, to, the stories, of, these, market, bubbles, that happened, in, the, 1400s, and, the, 1500s, and the, 1600s, they're, the, same, story, of, the the, ico, mania, in, 2017, they're, the, same story, of, defy, summer, in, 2020, like, i resonated, with, every, single, part, of, the story, like, i felt, myself, part, of, that, story, and, i feel, like, the, only, logical, explanation is, that, because, market, bubbles, are, 100 percent, memetic, desires, and, the, humans will, follow, the, same, path, the, same

narratives, over, and, over, and, over, again because, it's, built, into, our, dna, have, you thought, about, this yeah, i, mean, i, couldn't, agree, more, i, mean like, so long, before, there, was, social, media um, people, still, look, to, other, people, to know, what, to, want, social, media, just exacerbated, it, right um, and, and, before, there, were, financial markets, um, there, were, still, bubbles, and all, sorts, of, things, they, just, weren't, in in, financial, assets, right, there, were like rises, and, falls, in, people's, reputations for, instance, right, in, in, all, kinds, of other, things, right, so, like, the, fun, the point, is, that, we're, like, mimetic creatures, by, nature, we, almost, always

like, overshoot, because, the, nature, of memetic, desire, is, is, is, to, be, untethered from, the, from, any, kind, of, objectivity eventually, especially, the, longer, and longer, that, it, goes so, there, are, bubbles, in, all, kinds, of other, areas, in, life, in, politics, in dating, in, fashions, in, in, like, in, all kinds, of, things, and, what, financial markets, have, done, is, just, given, humans, a very, easy, way, to, see, what, already happens, in, everyday, life all, the, time, like, that, i, just, freaking bubbles, in, in, high, school, right, like, you know, like, in, in, in, with, people, so, i think, markets, basically, hold, up, a, mirror to, mimesis, and, hold, up, a, mirror, to, our

humanity, and, see, the, way, that, we, are, and it's, not, just, like, we're, like, that, only in, financial, markets, we're, just, like that, all, the, time we, have, memetic, desire, that's, super interesting, i, don't, think, i've, thought about, it, that, way, luke, that, like markets, are, just, a, mere, for, mimetic desire, and, that, markets, there, are markets, for, everything, like, markets, even for, ideologies, or, specific, types, of music, or, specific, types, of, art, or fashion, um you, also, brought, up, in, your, book, this concept, of, reflexivity right, is, is, that, also, what, we're, talking about, how if, um you, know, a, certain, amount, of, people, want a, specific, asset, in, a, market and, drive, the, price, up

then, people, see, that, price, and, they're like, okay, well, price, going, up, i, better get, in, they, pile, in you, you, gave, this, uh, example, i, think, of of, from, your, book, of, um, tesla, stock right and, um, i, was, just, like, visually picturing, this, and, you, said, that, when tesla, stock, was, was, pumping, somebody went, to, the, google, search, and, they, type in, you, know, should, i with, like, you, know, how, google, kind, of autofills, with, all, the, suggestions, the number, one, suggestion, at, that, time, was should, i, buy, tesla, right, this, is, mimetic desire, as, expressed, through, google algorithms, how, weird, is, that that algorithms, are, maybe, now, programming humanity's, memetic, desires, and, yet, this is, the, world, we, live, in, so

yeah, we'll, talk, talk, a, little, bit, about uh, reflexivity, then, and, how, that, applies to, markets, yeah, well, i, mean, the, scary thing, about, the, google, example, before, i talk, about, reflexivity, is, like, think about, it, what, google, did, is, basically suggest, a, question, and, suggest, a, desire to, somebody, before, they, even, knew, the right, question, to, ask, yeah, it's, not, just that, they, suggested, a, question, they suggested, a, desire, buying, their customers, they're, fanning, the, flames right, they're, absolutely, fanning, the flames so, the, principle, of, reflexivity was, articulated, really, well, by, george soros, in, his, book, i, highly, recommend, it the, alchemy, of, finance and, he, talks, about

how, financial, markets, are, always reflexive, and, that um expectations shape, reality, and, then, filter, like, a, a feedback, loop, right, like, investors expectations, um, affect, their, decisions we're, sort, of, guessing, what, other people's, expectations, are, which, affect our, expectations, which, actually, cause, us to, make, real, world, decisions, in, the financial, markets, which, then, change expectations, right so one, of, george, soros's, you, know, first, big trades, was, um, basically, taking, advantage of, this, fact, right, it, was, a, huge currency, trade, people, were, trying, to figure, out, if, a, currency, would, collapse and

by, taking, aggressive, action, in, the market, and, causing, some, price, action, he changed, the, expectations, that, the currency, would, collapse you, know, so, like, we, we, can, affect through, our, actions, expectations, which then, affect, other, people's, actions, and reflexivity, just, means, that, we're, that the, market, is, constantly, reflexive, and never, static, it's, completely, dynamic right, it's, like, two, people, on, a trampoline, like, if, one, of, them, jumps, the other, person, is, going, to, have, a, force exerted, on, them, which, affects, them, and their, movement, so, we're, all, kind, of enmeshed, in, this, web, and, what, i, try, to do, in, the, book, is, is, connect, that, to mimetic, desire, saying, like, that, you, you can't, be in, a, room, full, of, people, having, a

discussion, about, about, anything, without having, your, desires, affected, in, some, way you, might, not, think, that, they, are, but desi, memetic, desire, is, reflexive especially, at, the, level, of, markets, i think, the, sk, the, interesting, implication and, perhaps, the, scary, implication, of this, is, memetic, desire, is, like, a it's, like, access, having, root, access, to the, firmware, of, our, brains, and, not, just our, individual, brains, but, like, our collective, brains and, what's, scary, about, that, is, one, thing if, it, happens, kind, of, organically, or naturally, right, and, like, the, toddler likes, the, red, toy, because, her, dad's, a fireman, that's, one, thing, right, okay, cool that, was, supposed, to, happen, maybe, but

it's, another, when, you, have outside, forces, or, third, parties, who, know about, this and are, using, it, using, this, firmware, level access, to, like, program, society, and what's, ultra, scary, about, this, is when, they, can, automate, it, through, the use, of, information, technology, at, the scale, of, the, internet, using, algorithms right, so, that, google, autofill, example like, guys, that, happens, in, your, twitter feed, in, your, in, your, facebook, feed, your instagram, feed, right, and, it's, not, even individual, human, beings, that, are programming, the, propaganda, they've

actually, just, taught, algorithms, to, do this, and, a, tweak, here, or, tweak, there, can totally, change, the, medic, desire, outcomes of, a, society that, is, some, power, that, i'm, not, sure that, uh, like, we, are, ready, to, to, deal with, and, it's, very, scary, to, think, of that, level, of, power, being, completely centralized, by, insidious, actors, anyway this, is, like an, implication, i, think, of, what, you're saying yeah, and people, who, understand, memetic, desire well, that, understand, that, this, is, a fundamental, feature, of, how, human, beings come, to, want, and, desire, things people, can, hack, into, that, that, desire

and, i, think, the, big, tech, companies, are already, doing, it, i, mean, i, think, they understand, the, medic, desire, very, well but, we, have, to, be, aware, of, of, this, and like, awareness, brings, some, level, of freedom, and, agency, over, it, and, the, last thing, that, we, want are a, few, sort, of, oligarchs, and, centralized government, um, pulling, the, strings, of, of medic, desire, i, tell, the, example, in, the book, about, eddie, bernays, who's, basically the, the, father, of, public, relations, and propaganda, who, used, who, basically understood, memetic, desire, enough, to engineer, a, campaign, to, get most, of, the, women, in, the, 1920s, to, start smoking, because, he, gave, them, the, right models, of, desire, and, they, just, didn't

understand, right, that, this, that, their desires, were, were, being, shaped, and molded, by, somebody, that, understood, that they, just, needed, the, right, model, and, if they, were, given, the, right, model, that they, would, take, up, smoking, right powerful, very, powerful, so, it's, like, if, i was, to, start, a, cryptocurrency, today imagine, and, i, i, went, and, i i, paid, like, 10, or, 12, really, powerful models, in, the, cryptocurrency, space to, to, to, get, behind, it, influencers they're, basically, influencers, right, and then, i, and, then, i, told, them, to just, pretend, that, they, stumbled, on, it objectively, and, spontaneously came, to, the, conclusion, right, that, this is, a, good, investment, while

a, thousand, times, right, so, this, is, the problem, right, like, so, many, layers, of, of mimesis, they're, all, underground, they're hidden, and, we, only, see, the, surface, right and, so, much, of, life, takes, place, under underground, deep, underground, and, we've got, to, be, sort, of, aware, of, that, right and, just, like, get, under, the, surface, kick the, tires, find, out, what's, happening because, desires, are, being, modeled, to, us all, the, time, and, they're, it's, often disingenuous, right, like, this, is, the, name of, the, game, for, influencers, yet, people keep, paying, influencers, a, lot, of, money because, it, freaking, works like, you, know luke, we, talked, at, the, beginning, of, this uh, show, about, how

mimetic, desire, is, kind, of, this, chaotic neutral, force, it, can, have, good, outcomes it, can, have, negative, outcomes, and, also if, bankless, listeners, have, been, paying attention, to, bank, list, they'll, know, that uh, sometimes, ron, and, i, bring, up, the, the straight, up, the, topic, of, mindfulness, and the, importance, and, role, of, mindfulness as, you as, you, go, through, crypto, markets, you know, markets, go, go, high, we, get, euphoric they, go, low, we, get, depressed, being mindful, really, helps, you, navigate, those waters, and, overall, sam, harris, talks about, this, a, lot, with, his, uh, waking, up app, and, mindfulness, and, mindfulness meditation, can, really, allow, you, to, step back, from, your, own, psyche, and, actually start, to, like, label, mimetic, desire, you

know, and, and, the, forces, that, are impacting, your, perceptions that, you, will, forgot, or, didn't, realize or, are, are, are, doing, that, and, so, uh, the the, an, action, item, for, listeners, is, to you, know, take, another, look, at mindfulness, because, it, is, the, thing, that allows, you, to, start, to, become, immune, to memetic, desire, when, you, want, to, choose to, be, immune, from, it, and, also, allow, you to, tap, into, it, and, leverage, it, when, it works, for, you, and, that, brings, us, to, i think, our, last, conversation, because, we started, off, saying, how, you, know, there's good, memetic, desire, and, then, there's memetic, desire, that, can, be, used, for, evil we, recently, had, vitalik, buterin, on, the bankless, podcast, to, talk, about, this concept, called, legitimacy, and, i, actually think, to, some, degree

we're, also, talking, about, the, same, thing instead, of, instead, of, labeling, it legitimacy, we're, actually, now, calling, it memetic, desire in, that, podcast, with, vitalik, he, talked about, how legitimacy, is, largely, only, defined, what people, collectively, agree, to, be legitimate, as, in, there's, no, there's, no basement, or, foundation, for, what establishes, legitimate, legitimacy legitimacy, it's, only, in, the, psychosocial level, the, brain, mesh, network, level, of the, humans, that, are, around, you, things are, only, legitimate, if, other, people other, humans, also, think, them, to, be legitimate, and, so, this, is, in, my, opinion a, memetic, desire, for, good, uh, because what, is, legitimacy, other, than, a, good

thing, to, have, or, a, good, property, to, have for, something, that, is, legitimate you, see, as, like, memetic, desire, as, like, a creation, of, legitimacy, a, creative, force yeah i, i, i, do, i, think, that, it, absolutely, is um, like, other, people, wanting, what, we want, gives, it, a, stamp, of, legitimacy so, again, um, this, can, be, good, or, bad, um you, know, there, are, societies, where, child sacrifice, has, been, legitimate, it's, been legitimized um it, you, know, it's, it's, a, fascinating concept, right, and, i, think, um it's, fundamental, to, understanding, money it's, absolutely, fundamental, to understanding, so a, lot, of, things, about

about, social, life, um, one, thing, that vitalik, said, i, listened, to, the, episode and, i, watched, i, i, read, the, paper, he basically, says, it's, it's, the, outcome, of coordinated, effort, and, i, think, ascribes a, lot, of, intentionality, to, it, right, we talk, about, game, theory, so, there, seems, to be, a, coordinated, effort, to create, legitimacy i, think, where, gerard, would, differ, from that, when, he, sort, of, like, looks, at the, way, that memetic, outcomes, happen through, crowds, or, through, large, complex systems that, we, often, don't, understand that legitimacy, is, often, the, product, of, uh non-intentional, mimesis right, like, things, that, are, happening, at

the, unconscious, level, where something, is, arrived, at, as, legitimate without, a, lot, of, like, conscious thinking, about, it, that, is, um, that's, just a, tension, that, i, would, introduce, into the, discussion, and, i, think, we, can, we, can introduce, more, or, less, coordination but, gerard, would, say, that, oftentimes when uh, when, a, memetic, process, takes, hold it's, hard, to, know, who, like, the, first mover, was, and, who, the, who, the, real models, are, it's, kind, of, like, looking, at the, flock, of, starlings, like, which, one, is moving, first, right, it's, hard, to, know, so i, i'm, curious, as, to, like, how, that, actual process, works, in, the, context, of

legitimacy, in, markets and, in, and, in, social, life um, i, mean, i, don't, have, an, answer, i'm just, gonna, i'm, just, gonna, throw, out, the girardian, perspective, on, there and, i, think, that, the, intentionality, is good, right, i, think, that, it's, really, good to, have, that, but, also, in, a, decentralized ecosystem um, to, what, extent, are, our, things, arrived on, that, might, be, the, product, of, mimesis more, than, rationality, so, there's, this constant, interplay, right, between objectivity, i, do, think, that, like, just one, observation, on, that, luke, is, like, i, i do, think, there, are, a, ton, of, hyper rationalists, and, engineers, and cryptographers, and, brilliant, people, in crypto, like, that, just, don't, fundally fundamentally, understand, why, bitcoin, is

valuable as, an, example or, why, ether, is, valuable, right, like, they just, don't, understand, because, i, think they, don't, approach approach, the, space, from, a memetic, desire, meme, theory, perspective right, like, so, and, that, can allow, them, to, draw incorrect, conclusions, like why, is, bitcoin, worth, 30k right, like, it, if, you, look, at, just, the the, technology, level, it's, a, peer-to-peer you, know, um, transaction, network, and, only seven, to, eight, transactions, per, second, i mean, visa, can, do thousands, already, we, already, have something, like, that, but, why, is, it, worth

30k i, think, it's, because, of, this, this, hidden force, of, subconscious, mimetic, desire that, sometimes the, technologists, and, the, people, the rationalists, among, us, the, really, smart people, with, huge, cerebral, cortexes, like they, kind, of, miss, that, piece, of, it, well exactly, and, the, smarter, you, are, like, the better, you, are, at, justifying, things after, the, fact, with, all, kinds, of, really smart, arguments, and, like, why, i, love crypto, so, much, is, that, there, are, so, many absolutely, brilliant, people, that, are thinking, really, hard, about, these questions, i, mean, i, got, an, undergrad degree, in, finance, a, while, ago, i graduated, in, 2004, i've, learned, more about, finance, in, the, last, three, years tonight, than, i, have, in, my, entire, life because, of, crypto, and, i, think, i, think, a

lot, of, people, can, say, the, same, thing right, yeah, it's, fun, it's, exciting, and there's, brilliant, minds, thinking, about this, stuff, but, legitimacy, is, really important, to, understand, one, thing, i, i pulled, a, quote, from, vitalik, and, i, want to, read, it, because, this, gets, to, the heart, of, what, i'm, saying he, made, i'm, quoting, him, verbatim, he, said if, people, do, something, different they, they, i, think, they, worry, if, they, do something, different, they'll, only, create conflict, and, suffer, or, at, least, be, left in, a, lonely, forked, ecosystem, all, by themselves, right, so, he, was, talking, about legitimacy, and, and, like, the, fear, that people, have, of, like, breaking, away, from the, legitimacy, and, i, would, say, that people, would, rather, be, wrong, than, be

alone and, and, this, social, force, of, memetic desire, and, mimesis um, can, cause, people, to, do, things, um, they might, think, they're, rational, but people, would, rather, be, wrong, than, be alone, and, i, think, there's, a, powerful, uh social, mechanism at, work, there's, fomo, involved, there's all, kind, of, memetic, desire, involved, but i, would, push, back, a, little, bit, on, giving legitimacy, an, overly, rationalistic, um like, like, explanation, i, think, there, are many, things, that, we, consider, legitimate in, our, society that, we, haven't, given, a lot, of, thought about, or, that, there, wasn't, some

centralized, planning, system, that that, like, thought, about, it, i, mean, i believe, in, free, markets, okay, and, i, think that, like, in, in, general, like, we, arrive at, but, they're, not, always, good, things and, sometimes, we, we, step, back, and, and, we realize, that through certain, circumstances, in, an, era, or certain, forces, that, were, at, work, um certain, things, gained, legitimacy that, uh, lose, legitimacy, a, decade, later and, that, is, uh, what, we've, been, talking about, in, this, entire, podcast, right, it's like, how, mimesis, like, gives, value, to things, and, takes, value, away, from, things there's, definitely, an, aspect, of, like another, book, you, could, write, or, at least

a, sub, stack, article, for, us, luke, is, like generational, memetic, desire, and how, that, changes, things, because, that that, is, one, thing, we, are, seeing, in crypto, is, like, millennials, and, zoomers they're, not, buying, gold, man, like, they just, don't, value, it, the, way, their grandparents, did but, they, are, buying, crypto, but, we've taken, so, much, of, your, time, luke, and, this has, been, super, insightful, for, us, i, gotta kind, of, end, maybe, with, with, with, this question, is what's, your, take, on, this crazy, thing that, we, call, crypto, like, you've, got, kind of, a i, know, you, know, about, it, right, like you've, been, following, the, story, all along, you, probably, hold, some, crypto assets, but, you're, not, like deep, into, the, culture, necessarily, uh, yet

maybe we'll be, in, the, future, um, what's, your, take, on what's, going, on, yeah, i, want, to, be, deep into, the, culture, i, told, you, guys, before we, went, on, the, air, the, only, reason, i haven't, been, is, i've, been hard, at, work, creating, a, book, for, the last, couple, of, years, and, so, i, couldn't spend, as, much, time, as, i, as, i, would, have liked, or, i would, have, wrote, in, a, really shitty, book, um my, take, is, that, crypto, is, is uh and, probably, the, most, important, thing happening, in, the, world, right, now um, from, a, geopolitical, standpoint uh, from, in, an, economic, standpoint, from the, standpoint, of, like, human uh, evolution um we're, learning, all, kinds, of, things, about ourselves, right, it's, causing, us, to, like ask, questions

like, fundamental, questions, that, you would, think, we, would, talk, about, more, but they're, so, fundamental, that, we, forget, to ask, them, like, what, what, the, heck, is money, like, what, is, money, like, most, you don't, learn, that, in, school, right, it's just, like, you, know people, are, because, people, grow, up, and they've, just, never, asked, like fundamental, questions, but, like, we're, all asking, the, question, right, now and, i, i, think, it's, a, tremendously positive, thing [Music] you, know, i'm, i'm, very, bullish, on ethereum, um i, think that, i, think, that, there's, a, aside, from the exciting, things, that, it, could, do, to the, global, economy, and, to, people's, lives i, think, there's, an, educational, aspect, to

this, that's, that's, really, important that's, going, to, have, spillover, effects way, beyond, crypto, so, like, crypto, is, not just, about, crypto, crypto, is, about, like what, it, means, to, be, human, and, i, think, i i, sort, of, as, as, somebody, that's interested, in, like, interdisciplinary questions, i, think, that, it, will, it, will shed, light, on, everything, from, politics to, just, social, relationships, to, like, the way, that, cities, operate, and, those, i think, it's, going, to, take, us, a, very, long time, to, figure, it, out, but, the, the, speed at, which, this, is, all, happening, is, really really, exciting, and, i'm, just, glad, that now, that, i, finally, finished, writing, the book, uh, i, can, begin, to, dive, in, the, way that, i, wanted, to, a, couple, of, years, ago and, thanks, thanks, to, your, show, and, your

and, your, sub, stack, it, makes, a, little, bit easier, we're, super, excited, we, would, love to, have, you, come, on, down, the, rabbit, hole with, us, let, us, know, what, you, think, um because, you've, got, a, exceptional, lens, on this, stuff, and, it, is, interdisciplinary it's, it, takes, philosophy, takes, so sociology, it, takes, psychology it, takes, all, of, anthropology, all, of these, things, together, is, what, forms crypto, so glad, to, have, you, luke, and, what, we, want to, do, is, we, would, love, to, have, you, on, in the, future, after, you, take, a, tour, down the, rabbit, hole, you, know, six, months, a year, and, come, back, on, let, us, know, what you, think, of, things, but, luke, it, has, been such, a, pleasure, having, you, on, bank, list thank, you, so, much thanks, so, much, for, having, me, appreciate it, i'd, love, to, come, back, on

action, items, bankless, listeners, luke, did not, write, a, shitty, book, he, spent, two years, and, he, wrote, a, fantastic, book, it is, called, wanting, the, power, of, memetic desire, in, everyday, life, we, will, include a, link, to, it, in, the, show, notes, action item, one, is, go, download, that, on, audible or, something, or, go, pick, up, a, copy, of, it read, it, it's, fantastic, also, subscribe, to luke's, sub, stack, it's, called anti-mimetic, this, is, a, field, guide, to memetic, desire, we, will, include, a, link, in the, show, notes, to, that, as, well, risks, and disclaimers, ethan's, risky, crypto, is risky, d5, is, risky, so, are, bubbles, so, is memetic, desire, it, seems, like, you, could lose, what, you, put, in, we, are, headed, west this, is, the, frontier, it's, not, for everyone, but, we're, glad, you're, with, us

on, the, bankless, journey, thanks, a, lot hey, we, hope, you, enjoyed, the, video, if, you did, head, over, to, bankless, hq, right, now to, develop, your, crypto, investing, skills and, learn, how, to, free, yourself, from banks, and, gain, your, financial independence we, recommend, joining, our, daily newsletter, podcast, and, community, as, a bankless, premium, subscriber, to, get, the most, out, of, your, bank, list, experience you'll, get, access, to, our, market, analysis our, alpha, leaks, and, exclusive, content and, even, the, bankless, token, for, airdrops raffles, and, unlocks, if, you're, interested in, crypto, the, bankless, community, is where, you, want, to, be, click, the, link, in the, description, to, become, a, bankless premium, subscriber, today, also, don't forget, to, subscribe, to, the, channel, for

in-depth, interviews, with, industry leaders, ask, me, anythings, and, weekly, roll ups, where, we, summarize, the, week, in crypto, and, other, fantastic, content thanks, everyone, for, watching, and, being on, the, journey, as, we, build, out, the bankless, nation