67 - The Altcoin Slayer | Eric Wall

Transcript

[Music] welcome, to, bankless where, we, explore, the, frontier, of internet, money, and, internet, finance this, is, how, to, get, started, how, to, get better, and, how, to, front, run, the opportunity i'm, ryan, john, adams, i'm, here, with, david hoffman, and, we're, here to, help, you, become, more, bankless david, we, have, the, altcoin, slayer, on, the show eric, wall, how, was, that, conversation yeah, this, is, the, first, time, i've actually, gotten, able, to, talk, to, eric wall, and, he's, somebody, that's, really helped, me, formulate, mental, models, in this, space and, eric, wall, for, those, that, don't, know very, very, prominent, in, 2017-2018 as, a, guy, that, seemed, to, go, against everyone's, grain, like, not, just, one

particulars, community's, grains, but everyone's, grain uh, and, so, like, while, he's, a, big bitcoiner, he's, not, afraid, to, tell bitcoiners, when, they're, wrong and, while, he, was, never, really, uh, conv convinced, by, the, ethereum, crowd he, has, as, of, late, uh, talked, very positively, about, certain, merits, of ethereum's, construction but, then, we'll, also, go, ahead, and, say that, the, overall ethereum, project, is, a, complete, mess, so this, guy thinks, for, himself, and, that's, kind, of why, we, got, him, on um, not, to, go, into, depths, about his, mental, models, and, the, way, that, he thinks, and, his, opinions, about, certain things, but, then, also as, an, exploration, into, the, way, that, he puts, thoughts, together

inside, of, a, space, where, so, many, people are, telling, you, how, and, what, to, think eric, wall, thinks, for, himself, this, is bankless meets, tribelis, i, really, feel, like, eric wahl strives, as, much, as, possible, not, to affiliate, himself, with, one particular, pattern, of, thought, or, one particular, tribe in, fact, i, think, early, on, he, he, very, much associated, himself at, with, uh, as, a, bitcoiner, like, very, much uh, put, the, the, mantle, of, that, tribe, on his, shoulders and, we, we, talked, about, almost, his, like ejection from, the, bitcoiner, sphere, by, by, the so-called, high, priest, and, what, that, what that, felt, like, it, was, almost, like, he, was excommunicated so, we, we, went, through, that, not, i, guess maybe, the, through, line, here, is, we, have, a

a, contrarian, thinker, a, tribeless individual and, what's, interesting, to, me, david, is, he is coming, to, some, of, the, same, conclusions that, we've, come, to as, part, of, the, the, bankless, platform some, different, ones but, also, many, of, the, same, conclusions but, he's, doing, it like, out, outside, of, uh the, ethereum, ecosystem's, influence, or the, bankless, ecosystem's, influence, he's almost, like, arriving, at, these, opinions independently, and, uh, that that's, what, was, so, interesting, about, i think, this, podcast and, eric's, journey, and, his, story, it's just, the, way, he, thinks, but how, he, has, arrived, at, these, opinions it's, definitely, not, through

group, think, and, through, like, tribe affiliation it's, like, when, he, says, it, you, know, that like he, actually, believes, it, in, that, moment not, to, say, he, doesn't, change, his, mind because, there, are, many, instances, where he, he's, admitted changing, his, mind, in, fact, you, know, the the, tweet, that, got, him, on, the, show i, think, was, uh, he, said, in, 2020, he stopped, being, wrong, about, eth, those, are his, words, not, mine, he, stopped, being wrong, about, eve so, this, is, someone, who's, also, very willing, to, do, it, like, a, 180 when, he, sees, that, um, the, evidence, points in, a, different, direction, so, kind, of a, cool, thinker, somebody, we've, wanted, on the, podcast, for, a, while and, we, actually, written, down, a, rabbit hole, that, we, weren't, expecting, to

towards, the, beginning, of, the, podcast where, we, get, to, talk, about, my, favorite subject, of, like evolutionary, crypto, assets, not, planned yeah, what, is, it, like, biology, biology and, like, the, evolution, of, crypto networks, right, uh, i'm, i, have, a deep-seated, belief, that, the, best, way, to understand, this, industry is, through, a, biological, perspective, uh and, eric, wahl, shares, that, belief, and, we actually, kind, of, went, down, that, rabbit hole, earlier, in, the, podcast, and, i, think that's, going, to, be, a, new line, of, a, line, of, topic, on, the, bankless podcast, that, we, haven't, really, touched on, i'm, really, happy, that, we, were actually, able, to, touch, on, it yeah, it's, kind, of, like, expect, the unexpected, in, this, podcast, right, at, the very, beginning, he, actually, called, me, out on, some, beef that, we've, had, previously, right, so, we

just, enter, in on, that, conversation, so, overall, really fantastic, episode of, course, you, can, get, a, download, of david, and, mai's thoughts, in, the, debrief, episode, that, is available, for premium, subscribers, on, the, bankless premium feed, so, make, sure, you, check, that, out, too if, you, are, a, premium, subscriber and, with, that, david, let's, talk, about, the fantastic, sponsors, that, made, this episode, possible bankless, is, proud, to, be, supported, by unit, swap, unit, swap, is, a, new, paradigm, in asset, exchange infrastructure, instead, of, a, cumbersome order, book, system, where, trades, are matched, with, other, humans uniswap, is, an, autonomous, piece, of software, on, ethereum which, is, what, ryan, and, i, call, a, money robot, no, human, counterparties, or

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eric, wall, is, a, contrarian, crypto investor, he, is, the, chief, investment officer at, arcane, investment, he's, someone, i don't, always, agree, with, yet he's, also, someone, i, always, appreciate, i think, that's, because, he, busts, through groupthink, he, isn't, afraid, to, change, his mind yet, he, manages, to, stay, extremely convicted, in, his, beliefs, at, the, same time, i, think, we're, going, to, learn a, lot, from, eric, in, this, podcast, eric welcome, to, bankless, how, are, you, doing today thank, you, so, much, ryan, um, kind, of surprised to, be, here, because, we've, had, this, uh you, and, me, we've, had, this, uh, ongoing spat, about, a, particular argument, that, we've, had, in, the, past about

how, to, correctly, apply, the, term trustless to, different, types, of, cryptocurrency systems and, because, of, our, inconsistencies, of opinions, there i've, i'm, a, principal, i'm, a, principled person, and, i, try, to, stick, to, my principles as, hard, as, i, can, and, one, of, my principles is, that, if, somebody, uses, terminology in, a, way, that, i, think, is, harmful, to, the overall, ecosystem then, you, know, i, cannot, prevent, people from saying, what, they, say, but, i, can, at, least uh choose, who, i, engage, with, uh, i, think, the spat, that, we, had, was you, know, kind, of, a, mild, one, and, you, know

now, i'm, pretty, much, over, it, but, it, would be, good, if, we, could, just you, know, just, spend, a, few, seconds, just you, know hashing, over, that, little, piece, of disagreement, that, we, had around, trustlessness, uh, i, can, i, can explain, the, argument, if, if if, if, that's, helpful, to, you, yeah, let's do, it, and and, to, bankless, listeners, uh, as, you, can see, the, the, introduction, did, eric justice, because, we, didn't plan, any, of, this, pre-recording, and, we're jumping, right, in, with, the, contrarian opinion, um, eric, yeah, i'd, love, to, i'd love, to, hear, you, i so, i, think, this, is, in, regards, to, an article, that, i wrote, uh, sometime, in, march, 2020 and, the, reason, i'm, remembering, is

actually, because, i, did, pull, it, up because, i, was, wondering, if, if, you, would uh, pull, this, up, and, want, to, talk, about this, first, and the, article, title, is, called, eth, is irreplaceable and, uh, it's, basically, a, taxonomy about, the, uh, trustlessness, the, spectrum of, trustlessness of, certain, assets, so, i, make, the, basic uh, assertion, that, you, know, different assets on, ethereum, have, different, or, in, crypto writ, large, have, different settlement, levels, of, settlement guarantee, right, and, like even, in, the, real, world, different, assets have, different, levels, of, settlement guarantee some, are, backed, by, the, nation, state, some require uh, like, legal, um, legal, trust uh, some, are, more, bearer, asset

instruments and, some, i, put, in, a, quadrant, called, a trustless quadrant, and, again, i, pitch, this, as, sort of, a, spectrum of, trust, right, recognizing, that, nothing on, earth nothing, that, can, be, created, nothing, that has, ever, been, created, is, completely trustless but, i, think, you, take, issue, with, the, uh the, term, trustless, in, and, of, itself and, i, would, love, for, you, to, explain, that as, we, start, this, episode where, you, take, issue, and, uh, we'll, we'll see, whether, we, actually, disagree, at, the end, of, this uh, or, whether, we, agree, yeah, so, i, can give, my, take the, reason, that, i, took, issue, with, how you characterized, uh, the trustlessness, taxonomy, was, that, uh, if, i

remember, it, correctly, and please, correct, me, if, i'm, wrong, you basically put, different, cryptocurrency, projects, on an, axis, on, on, a, spectrum, where, they, went from uh, more, trustless, to, less, trustless whereas, in, in, yeah, you, can, see uh, in, this this, chart, here, that uh, basically, you, can, go, from more, trustless, to, less, trustless, where, i think, that, there, are uh, things, that, are, completely, trusted that, should, not be, on, a, trustless, diagram, at, all so, i, don't, think, that, trustlessness

can, in, can, incorporate, everything because, there, are, some, things, that should, be, completely, outside of, this, spectrum, because, they're, trusted so, i, don't, think, that, you, can, say, that you, know uh, a, bank, is, just, uh less, trustless, or, or, or and, that, the, die, is, more, trustless, i think, that banks, are, 100, trusted, and, doesn't, belong in, a, diagram, of, trustlessness, at, all uh, i, think, that's, if, i, that's, how, i recall, the, argument and, i, tried, to, persuade, you, to remove, completely, trusted, things from, a, trustlessness, diagram and, you, rebutted, and, said, well, you, know

that's, not, how, i, think, about, it, and, i said well, in, if, that's, the, case, then, i'm going, to, stop, engaging with, you, until, uh, you've, refreshed, your thinking, on, it, and, then, we, had, all, these discussions, around, how, you, can, view, this topic, and uh, now, i'm, you, know, i've, i've, listened to, your, bankless, part, and, i, i i, don't, think, that, you, are, a, malicious actor, in, any, way, we, just, had, a disagreement, about terminology, but, i, don't, think that, you, are, harmful or, that, you're, bringing, a, negative nuance, to, the, industry, so, that's, why, i came, on that's, why, i've, now, come, around, so, i'm

on, the, pod, now i, think, we, can, get, over, this, and, we, can we, can, be, friends, again and, and, chat, about, things, that, are really, important, because, i, think, that our main, goals, with, our, efforts, in, the cryptocurrency, space are, pretty, much, 90, percent, aligned so, eric, i, think, that, if, i'm, interpreting what, you're, saying, correctly, that what, you, are, really, asking, to, change, in this, diagram, here, is, really asking, to, change, where, like, the, x, x, and y, axes, are it's, like, on, and, so, perhaps, so, you, you do, agree, that, there's, this, thing, in concept called, called, trustlessness, that, some crypto, assets try, to, emulate, like, you, know, bitcoin, and ether, to, perhaps, the, most, degree

and, what, i, think, what, you're, saying, is everything, to, like, perhaps, on, the, left side, of, this, diagram you, you, are, saying, like, why, are, we, even calling, it, uh, putting, it, on, the trussless, spectrum, at, all, in, the, first place, let's, use, completely, different words, for exactly, completely, different, part, of this, zone, exactly exactly, what, different, words, would, you use, than, eric versus, trustless, no, i, just, put trusted, and, trustless, in, completely different axis, you, should, have, a, split, here, where you, put things, that, ultimately, do, depend, on trust in, a, complete, on, a, completely, different axis, here and, because, right, now, if, you, look, at, the you, have, trustless, issuance

on, the, y, axis, and, then, the, trustless settlement, on, the, x axis, i, think, that, you, should, have there, should, be, uh, an, axis, that, goes, to the, left, where, you, have, completely trusted, things uh, but, you, know, i, don't, want, to, spend too, much, time, on, this, bat can, i, just, can, i, just, say, something, i actually, don't, think uh, there's, a, real, spat, there, i, think much, of, this, is actually, uh, semantics, and, probably, the result of, uh, me, just, being, a, sloppy, diagram drawer i, think, maybe, someone, who's, listening, to bankless uh, and, in, the, bankless, nation, can, take the, diagram, that, we're, showing, right, now and, come, up, with, something, that, better

illustrates, that because, fundamentally, i, think, i, agree with, with, what, you're, saying, right like, some, assets are, completely, trusted, on, on, one, side, of the, spectrum and, then, you, have, the, spectrum, of trustlessness, where, maybe, you, get, this this, perfect, state, on, the, other, side, of the, spectrum, that's that's, completely, trustless, but, of course, no, asset, can, achieve, that i, just, think, the, diagram, is, maybe, drawn in, a, way, that, does, not, make, that, clear and somebody, else, could, do, a, better, job, i, am not, a, diagram that, is, not, my, day, job, i, was, just, trying to, write, an, article, to, get, a concept, out, there, and, a, mental, model, out there, which, is, the, mental, model, of

different, assets, on, ethereum, have different, degrees of, trust, so, if, you're, buying, usdc on, ethereum, final, settlement, actually happens in, meat, space, it, happens, inside, of, a coinbase uh, bank, account, in, the, traditional finance, world and, that, is, a, much, that, has, much different, settlement, guarantees than, something, like, die, where, you, have, a larger, degree of, that, settlement, happening, on, chain and, of, course that, is, much, different, than, something like, bitcoin, where the, entire, settlement, process, it's, a bearer, instrument, the, entire, settlement process, is, on, chain, i, felt, like, the crypto, world, didn't, completely understand, that, at, the, time anyway, i, actually, think, that, we, are closer, in, alignment

maybe, than, uh, than, was, previous, thought coming, into, this, podcast and, some, of, this, is, just, as, a, result, of a, sloppy, diagram, design, that, could, be improved, upon what, say, you, sir, i'm, perfectly, happy with, this, resolution, of, the, argument, and i, think, that if, we, just, zoom, out, a, little, bit, and like why, are, we, having, this, types, of disagreements, in, the, first, place it's, because, you, know, my, um interest, in, the, cryptocurrency, space um, you, know, i've, i, i, got, into, into, the bitcoin, industry, uh, very, long ago, i, purchased, my, first, bitcoin, in 2012.

uh, please, don't, rob, me, because, i, got, i lost, all, of, them when, mount, gox, collapsed, in, 2014, so don't, think, that don't, come, to, my, house, and, think, that you're, gonna, find, an, ocean, of, bitcoins there, that, i, bought, for uh, ten, dollar, space, um uh, but, uh, you, know, i've, become, so fascinated, by, cryptocurrencies as, a, concept, and, as, a, revolution, that i'm so, ideologically, and, philosophically interested, in, the, space, that, you, know how, i, view, my, participation, and, interest in, this, space it's, not, about, you, know, i, don't, care as, much, as, i, probably, should, from, a

commercial, perspective, about uh, you, know, making, the, right, types, of business, relationships, or, uh positioning, myself, that, strategically like, if, i, had, that intention, of, you, know, just, building, out um you, know, making, as, much, money, as possible, then, i, would, have, been, on bankless, podcast, a, year, ago, or, you, know so, to, to, to, market, myself, but, i care, about, the, space, and, i, care, about things, being stated, correctly, so, that, we, can, as, an industry move, in, the, direction, that, i, think, is most, interesting, and, that, direction is, where, how, much, can, we, decentralize pieces, of, the, economic, world, and, the

finance, world to, to, basically, create, a, form, of revolution that, changes, how, humans, can, interact, and how, society, can, function that, is, much, larger, and, much, more interesting, goal, to, me, than you, know, caring, about, who, i, am, friends with so, that's, why, i, will, get, into, arguments with, all, sorts, of, people, that, i kind, of, actually, like, um, but, i, cannot you, know, i'm, just, trying, to make, sure, that, we're, all, on, the, right path of, uh, optimizing, uh, how, much, we we, can, improve, uh, the, systems, for, the systems, of, today well, eric, wall, i, think, that, is, an extremely, noble, goal, and, it's, a, goal that, we

share, on, the, bankless, podcast, as, well, we very, much view, this, as, a, very, fun, industry, with a, lot, of, you, know, money-making, potential but, really, at, the root, of, it, is, much, more, of, a, political and, cultural, revolution uh, and, we, see, ourselves, as, uh, you, know people, that, are, attempting, to steward, that, revolution, into, into existence and, so, tip, of, the, hat, for, for, being, on that, on, that, same, you, know, path, as, well and, i, kind, of, want, to, just, dive, deeper into, why, this, industry, and, why, this revolution, resonates, with, you, so, much you, talked, about, your, philosophical interest in, uh, this, industry, okay, just, let's, uh just, dive, deeper, down, that, hole what, about, this, industry, do, you, think

really, uh, is, fitting for, the, future, of, the, world, that, you think, should, come, about um, yeah, i, i, just, want, to, add, one one, thing, uh, to, that, uh, before, we, get into, that, topic, which, is you, know, what, how, come, you, er, the, three of, us we, seem, to, have, the, same, ideological alignment how, come, we, get, into, these, kinds, of spats, and, i, think, that, has, to, do, that, i am, such, an, old, i, describe, myself, as, an old, dog, you, know, i my, terminology, and, my, way, of, thinking, of things comes, very, much, from, the, early, days, of bitcoin and, we, uh, shaped, the, early terminology, for, things, uh, in, order, to make, sense, and, classify, different, crypto

cryptocurrency, systems, and, that, has, been a, very you, know, conservative, and, restricted type, of, terminology, and, taxonomy so, uh, that's, why, you, know, people, that come, into, the, space perhaps, a, little, bit, later, that, aren't uh you, know, as, plugged, into, that, type, of taxonomy, thinking, that's, why, i, think, we can, get, into, disagreements, it, just happens, that, we, come, a little, bit, into the, space, from, different, angles i'm, a, long-time, bitcoiner, we, care, very very, much, about very, specific, anal, things, and we, are, a, bit, ocd, in, terms, of, that, so that's, the, only, reason, that i, think, that, you, know, we, have, these, kind

of, kinds, of, spats but, to, get, back, to, your, question, um, you know, i, have a, i, i, have, um, i, have, actually, i i, don't, have, a, youtube, channel, but, i have, a, youtube, account and, i, use, that, youtube, account just, to, collect, all, the, videos, of presentations that, i've, made, that, other, people, have uploaded, and, i, put, it, into, a a, playlist, so, that, i, can, you, know, gather all, my, performances, in, the, in, in, the past, that, have, been, recorded and, one, of, those, performances, that, i personally, uh, liked, the, most, was, when, i was, invited to, a, swedish, uh, cryptocurrency uh, um, just, a, meet, up, and, they, asked, me

to, talk, about, consensus, algorithms and, uh in, that, format, i, got, full, full, uh control, of, what, i, wanted, to, express, and what, i, wanted, to, say and, what, i, wanted, to, talk, about, there was, and, now, i, think maybe, this, sounds, uh, like, an, outdated take, or, you, know everyone's, heard, it, before, but, when, this happened, this, was four, four, or, five, years, ago, i, think, it was, four, years, ago, when, we, talked, about it i, described, how, i, view bitcoin, as, a, digital uh, a, primitive, digital, form, of, life because, if, you, think, about, what, actually

uh constitutes, life, what, is, life, form, is, an amino, acid, a, life, form is, a, bacterial, life, form, uh there, is, no, discrete, the, step, where something uh, goes, from, being, you, know not, alive, to, more, alive, it's, it's, a spectrum, just, like, the trust, trustlessness, spectrum, that, we talked, about uh, we, when, things, are, complex, enough and, they, are, self-sufficient, enough, and they, act, organically, enough, then, we, say they, are, alive, so you, know, a, bacteria, operates, almost entirely, algorithmic, and, i, think, that bitcoin

when, i, compare, bitcoin, to, a, very, uh primitive, life, form, uh, like, a, bacteria or, even, perhaps, a, mushroom, mushroom, is the, one, that, i, think, bitcoin, mostly resembles uh, i, do, classify, bitcoin, as, a, as, a as, a, as, a, primitive, form, of, life, and, i think, that, there, are, going, to be, more, and, more, uh, primitive, life, forms like, everyone, else, of, course, like, ai when, ai becomes, sentient, but, you, know, not, all life, forms, are, sentient uh, but, they, can, still, be, sent, because they, can, still, be, life, forms so, we, don't, have, sentient, uh, digital, uh life, forms, yet but, we, are, now, seeing, that, we, are, are having, digital life, forms, that, haven't, reached

sentience, yet so, the, way, that, i, think, about, it, and what, makes, me, most interested, in, the, cryptocurrency, space is, just thinking, about, uh, how, we, are, seeing digital, things, come, to, life, and, we, can analyze, those, as, life, forms and, i, think, that, if, you, look, at, the bitcoin, system, um you, know, every, 10, minutes, there's, a block almost, like, a, pulse, and, if, you listen, if, you, put, your, ear, uh, next, to, a bit, main, server, hall, you, can, actually hear, bitcoin's, breath um, so, i, do, think, i, do, think, of, these things, as, primitive, life, forms, are, very interested, in, and, and, all

cryptocurrencies, are, competing uh, with, each, other, uh, which, makes, it, uh that, we, also, have, an, evolutionary, aspect to, it, which where, the, uh, strong, and, the, weak, uh, this is the, strong, it's, it's, the, survival, of the, fittest uh, it's, basically, like, a, big, hunger games, game and, what, adds, an, extra, interesting quality, to, this, evolutionary, game, of cryptocurrencies is, that, what's, um, you, know, in, the, in, the physical evolutionary, world, uh, you, know, a, cat cannot, clone, the, features, of, a, dog, a, cat it, can, do, that, over, many, many, iterations uh and, it, can, evolve, into, a, dog, if, it, needs to, but, in, the, cryptocurrency, world

uh, one, cryptocurrency, can, actually, steal features from, another, project, which, changes, the entire, dynamics, of, the, evolutionary, game so, uh, charles, darwin, when, he, was analyzing, different, life, forms, and evolution um, that, was, probably, very, interesting, to him uh, to, think, about, and, i, think, that, we have, a, new uh, evolutionary, game, with, different rules that, are, to, me, because, they're, new, it's it's, even, more, interesting so, it's, the, intellectual, uh, challenge of, being, able, to, actually, take, all, of that in, and, analyze, it, from, that, perspective and, that, later, also, translates, like, if

you, understand, the, evolution, of cryptocurrencies if, you, have, that, as, your, framework, that you're, thinking, about, it, as as, things, that, have, different evolutionary, characteristics that, make, them, uh, fit, to, survive then, you, can, actually, become, an, investor because, if, you, can, pick, the, ones, that are, likely, to, survive, then, you, can, also be, a, good, investor, so, that's, how uh, even, though, this, sounds, very, you, know abstract, and, theoretical, and, scientific it, actually, maps, perfectly, well, with being, a, cryptocurrency fund, manager, because, i, just, gotta, try, to understand, the, dynamics, of, the, game, and the, evolutionary, game and, and, and, i, think, david, that, you've probably

written, some, article, that, uh, also tunes, into, this, team, haven't, you, yeah yeah, this, is, a really, one, of, my, favorite, subjects, in this, industry, is is, i, actually, don't, think, you, can, really understand, the, crypto, industry, at, large if, you, aren't, viewing, it, from, a biological, perspective uh, and, one, of, the, reasons, like, this, this industry, is, famously, like, so multi-disciplinary, and, that, complexity of, so, many, disciplines turns, into, complexity, theory uh, which, turns, into, just, the, the conversation, that, you, started, off, with with, is, where, does, life, actually, begin and, we, don't, really, know, but, the patterns, are that, life, is, always, about, the, management of, economic, resources

and, if, some, sort, of, organizational entity, can, manage, these, economic resources, appropriately, to to, the, benefit, of, the, life, form, and growing, because, it's, as, a, life, form, it is efficient, at, consuming, economic resources, while, also, capturing, further economic, resources all, of, a, sudden, we, have, like, the groundings, for, sustainability and, so, i i, applied, this, same, sort, of mental, model, to, um to, defy, apps, right, uh, where, defy, apps are, and, i, used, ether, as, like, the metaphor, of, like, nutrients, or, food value, is, like, the, the, new, communication medium, inside, of, the, you, know, the internet, of, money, or, the, crypto, world and, so, defy, apps, that, consume, ether, and then

output, some, sort, of, like, useful, product that, is, demanded, by, the, market are, able, to, go, out, into, the, world, and venture, into, this, new landscape, that, is, the, internet, find nutrients, which, is, value, you, know valuable, assets uh, and, then, produce, something, new, right and, so, the, the, mental, model, for, this, is that, like, or, more, concrete, model, for this, is, that maker, dao, you, come, in, and, you, submit ether, you, can and, the, maker, dial, consumes, that, ether and, then, it, outputs, die and, that, die, is, demanded, by, the environment, around, maker, and, so because, maker, is, a, viable, economic manager, life, form, it, has, sustainability and, we, can, talk, about, that, with

basically, every, single, defy, app, like there's, some, amount, of, value, input there's, some, amount, of, value, output, and because, the, output, is, demanded and, because, the, uh, the, defy, application is, efficient uh, there, is, more, value, that, is, created by the, defy, app, more, than, it, is, consumed and, all, of, a, sudden, it, is, a, net outputter, of, economic, resources, which, is good, for, the, world, there's, more, value created, by, these, things, than, what, is consumed, and, that's, why, they, are sustainable and, we, can, put, them, into, the, category, of life, forms, and, i, think, this, is an, insanely, interesting, topic, of conversation, that, i, was, not, actually did, not, know, we, were, actually, going, down this, rabbit, hole, but, it's, literally, my favorite, rabbit, hole, in, all, of, crypto might, as, well, um, but, yeah, that, was

uh, something, that, i dived, very, deeply, into, into, 2015, 2016 and, it's, been my, framework, for, of, thinking, for, a, very long, time um, but, it's, it's, i, think, you've, phrased it, very, well, and, i, resonate with, with, what, you, said, to, a, very, large degree um, but, yeah, let's, let's, jump, into, the other, other, topics, that, you, guys, wanted to, discuss, well, really, quick, there because, i, think, we're, we're, starting, to see, how, eric, wall thinks, right, which, is, a, kind, of part, of, the, the, entire, purpose, of, this podcast, because, i, think, you, you, bring some, really, interesting, insights, uh, to the, table, but you, almost, just, painted, yourself, just

now, as, sort, of, a, digital, biologist of, types, right, just, studying, the evolution yeah, i, used, to, call, me, i, i, used, to, call myself, uh crypto, darwinist, i was, thinking, about, i was i, was, i, was, thinking, about, uh, actually giving, out, that, you, know, there's, this darwin, award that, you, give, to, someone, does, something really, stupid, though, right yeah, and, i, was, thinking, that, i, could, be the, crypto, darwinist, and, i, could, give the, darwin, award, to like, projects, like, you, know, like, iota, uh yeah, yeah, that, has, you, know, if, if, a crypto, project has, you, know, one, server, and, if, that server, shuts, down, the, entire, system

fails then, you, get, the, darwin, award, um, okay so, this, is, this, is, like, the, question, of like, your, lens, on, the, world, is, a, crypto darwinist a, digital, biologist, right, like, the, the large, question is, um, i, think, in, that, perspective what, sorts, of, digital, life, forms, are more, likely, to, out, survive others, because, if, that's, your, lens, of thinking, that's, really, how, you, have, to think, about, everything, whether, it's bitcoin, or, uh ether, or, ethereum, or, any, d5, protocols i'm, curious, before, we, get, into, some, like specific, takes, from, you eric, um, about, that, lens what, sort, of, digital, life, forms, do, you

think have, the, best, fit, in, crypto well, um, i'm, gonna answer, your, question, like, from, how, i thought, about, it, from three, years, ago, but, my, thinking, has changed, a, little, bit, since, then, but how, i, used, to, think, of, it, was, that, if you're, gonna, think, of, something, as, a life, form uh, is, the, centralization, a, very, big necessary, component, and, i, do, think, that it, is perhaps, one, of, the, most, fundamental components, into, creating, something, into a, life, form, because you, know, if, if, you, know, a, server, on, your computer, is, that, a, life, form, i, mean, you can, turn, it, on, you, can, turn, it, off, it

doesn't, have a, a, an, ability, to, sustain, itself like, if, you, look, at, the, mushroom, the mushroom actually, does, provide, it, it, takes, up nutritions, from, the, soil, of, the, ground and, it it, it, transforms, that, into, a, resource for, the, rest, of, the, ecosystem, of, the nature uh, so, it, live, it, doesn't, live, it, lives in, us, in, a, kind, of science, symbolic, uh, relationship, with nature, and, i, think, that, all, life, forms ultimately, uh, in, order, to, survive, in, the long, term have, to, find, their, place, into, the ecosystem, into, the, into, the, ecologics, of it, and, i, think, that, bitcoin

fits, very, well, uh, in, that, category because um, you, know, bitcoin, pays, for, itself, so so, uh, people, want, access, to, the censorship, resistance, system, of, bitcoin to preserve, wealth, and, transfer, value, uh, so that's, how, bitcoin, contributes, to, us as, an, organism, and, then, we, contribute, to bitcoin by, providing, energy, and, electricity, to to, bitcoin, so, there's, a, symbiotic relationship, there, where uh, you, know, it's, very, difficult, to, kill bitcoin, because bitcoin, provides, something, to, us, uh, and as, long, as that, organism, is, providing, something, to us and, and, we, need, uh

and, and, actually, pays, for, itself, with the, currency, that the, miners, can, can, get, from, from, mining it then, uh, i, see, a, very, a, very, strong likelihood, for, that, organism, to, survive but, then, of, course, you, know, there, are uh, and, i'm, not, saying, that, that, may, you know, that, the, most, decentralized currency and, this, goes, into, my, to, my, later, stage thinkings, of, as, of, late you, know, how, much, does, decentralization actually, matter you, know, uh, is, a, cryptocurrency like, if, you, take, something, like cmi, decentralized, cryptocurrency does, it, naturally, have, a, shorter, life span

just, because, it, is, more, centralized, you know, mine, too my, intuition, tells, me, that, more centralized, platforms, they, have regulatory, regulatory, risks, around, them that, could, cause, them, to get, shut, down, at, any, point, in, time, so that, the, more centralized, platforms, uh, are, much more, likely, to, survive, in, the, long, term but, uh we, also, have, to, consider, that, okay, so, so what, happens, if if, i, if, a, semi-centralized, platform meets, regulatory, crackdown, can, they, not fork, that, platform, uh to, use, a, more, decentralized, consensus algorithm, and, make, the, organism, survive

anyway so, i'm, not, as, convinced, today, that, you know, i, used, to, just, look, at, the, current fundamentals, of, each, system, but, now, i am, taking, much, more, into, account the, uh, transmutative qualities, that, all, cryptocurrencies, have and, i, think, that, perhaps what, breathes, life, into, bitcoin, is, not the, uh, code, in, the, bitcoin, system it's, much, more, the, community and, the the, developer, community, that breathes, life into, the, bitcoin, uh, system, as, well, as the, ethereum, system and, that, uh, changes, the, equation, a little, bit

uh, if, you, catch, my, drift, eric, so, i'm reminded, of, this, metaphor, about, um, like ant, colonies, or beehives, where, like, there, is, this organism, right, but the, organism, isn't, the, bee, it, is, the swarm right, it's, not, the, it's, not, an individual, ant, it, is, the, system at, large, and, these, ants, seem, to, be working, in, like, this mindless, just, like, algorithm, this mindlessly, each, ant, feels, like, this little, bit, of, code, and, just, is, part, of this, overarching, system and, it's, the, overarching, system, that, is the, entity, at, large, right and, that, very, much, feels, like, bitcoin, or ethereum, right, where, like, the bitcoin, is, it's, one, there's, one, thing there's, one, bitcoin but, uh, there, are, like, you, know, in potentially

infinite, nodes, right, and, you, what bitcoin, is, when, you, download, the, bitcoin uh, blockchain, you, are replicating, bitcoin, you, are, going through, the, life, process of, you, know, copying, the, dna, and, then putting, it, on, your, node, your, server, so it's, not, your, server, that's, the, live but, it's, the, desire, to, replicate, bitcoin and, so, holistically uh, i, mean, there's, a, reason, why bitcoiners, on, crypto, twitter, are, called cyber, hornets, right, like, the, metaphor sticks um, and, so, the, not, one, um, person, or individual, represents, bitcoin, it's, about a, collective, movement but, also, my, question, to, you, is, like, you know or, to, some, degree, ant, colonies, and beehives, aren't, really, the, most, paradigm breaking, thing

as, a, life, form, on, this, planet, like, you know, humans, i, would, say, with with, more, in, my, opinion, centralized energies, inside, of, us you, know, a, a, cerebral, cortex, and, then just, straight, up, like, brain, power i, would, say, that, is, a, an, analogy, towards more, centralization, and, to, some, degree like the, question, is, like, well, if, there's more, centralization is, the, lifespan, of, the, system, uh shorter, perhaps, but, if, the, regulatory risk, never, comes to, some, degree, there, is, some, sort, of justification, for, more centralized, operation, more, more prefrontal, cortex operation, if, you, will, because, under, the paradigm, that, you, know regulatory, risk, never, actually, comes

well, then, you, can, actually, plan and, progress, further, into, the, into just, you, know, become, more, progressive and, more, iterative, faster how, do, you, feel, about, about, this, analogy in, this, comparison no, i, like, it, because, uh, i, like, the, ant um colony, analogy, and, i, think, that, if, you apply, that, to, humans humans, are, also, ant, colonies, in, two, ways the, first, way, is, that, you, know, we, just like you, said, each, individual, individual, ant is, a, very, primitive, being, that, can probably, only have, perhaps, 12, different, ideas and, one, at, a, time, in, their, head, go, left go, right, it's, hot, here, it's, warm, there it's, the, key

you, know, and, also, smell, is, one, of, the things, that, you, use but, and, we, humans, we, are, also, but, the colony, itself, the, ant, colony, itself is, a, completely, different, life, form, that can resist, uh, you, know, if, somebody, puts, a shovel, into, an, ant, colony it, restructs, it, if, you, reconstruct itself so, that, the, ant, colony, is, much, more sophisticated, and, has much, more, uh, stronger, chance, to, survive than, what, a, single, ant, does, because, it works, in, this, unit, unified it uh, as, a, unified, life, form, and, we, as humans uh, we, also, function, that, way, in, in, two ways the, first, one, is, that, we, are, made, up, by a, bunch, of, cells, and, by, bacteria

and, all, and, our, internal, organs each, component, within, us, is, also a, little, bit, like, an, ant, they, have, they do have, very, very, simple, tasks, that, they perform but, the, collection, of, all, of, those components, creates the, sentient, beings, that, are, us, so, in that, way each, individual, human, is, an, ant, colony but, then, if, you bring, it, into, a, larger, scale, and, you think, about, society society, is, also, like, an, ant, colony and, because, we, are, compared, to, a, society each, human, is, pretty, you, know, simplistic they, go, to, work they, have, their, desires, that, they, want to, fulfill

and, they, write, and, do, things, or, carry objects, but in, us, but, if, you, think, about, like, a nation, or a, a, dao, or, a you, know, human, humanity, humankind, as, a whole that's, also, a, very, big, ant, uh, colony and, uh, i, mean, of, course, humanity, as, a whole, has much, more, uh, a, bigger, chance, to, survive than, a, single uh, human, uh, does, so, i, do, think, that uh, decentralization, happens, at, many different levels, and, i, do, think, that, you, know, and that's, still, something, that, i'm grappling, with, you, know, when, i'm analyzing, cryptocurrencies, uh, how, much the, decentralization, quality, uh

is, necessary, for, the, uh, long-term life, line, of, that, project, also, because the thing, that, i, previously, mentioned, that these, projects, can, transform, they, can change, they, can, warp, very, quickly much, more, quickly, than, anything, we've seen, in, the, physical, world so, let's, talk, about, uh, applying, your brain and, that, lens, to, things, so, you, mentioned earlier in, the, introduction, eric, that, you're part, of, the, old, guard, got, into, bitcoin early, got, into, bitcoin, to, to, study, this digital, biology, that, was, in, front, of, you just intellectual, curiosity, you, also, got, in for, the social, movement, decentralization, you, got in, for, the, right, reasons, before

everyone, knew, it, was, going, to, jump, to like, 50k right, um, but, we, had, an, inkling, at, that time i, i'm, curious, though, because, i've, seen you, on, twitter, and, other, places you're, also, not, afraid, to, break, rank with, some, of, the, old, guard and, i, think, of, course, it's, uh, difficult to say, that, bitcoin, has, any, one, singular uh, thought, view, but, certainly, bitcoin maximalists, do which, is, there, shall, be, only, bitcoin bitcoin, will, accrue the, most, value, there, there, are, certain other, ideals, i, would, say that, would, i, attribute, to, bitcoin maximalism, i'm, curious, your, thoughts, on this eric, what, do, you, think, bitcoiners, get wrong

um, yeah, this, is, such, a, uh such, a, tough, tough, uh, topic, to, discuss and, something, that, i've been, one, of, my, like, main, not, only professional, but, also, you, know, there's personal, challenges, in, life um, you, know, i as, i, said, i, think, that, you, framed, it pretty, correctly, that, i'm this, digital, biologist, and, i, observe these, different, life, forms, and, i'm, very interested, in, the, dynamics, and, the interplay, and, the, hunger, games, of, crypto that's, what, i'm primarily, interested, in, so, i, don't, and in, that, game, you, know, i, have things, that, i, root, for, and, i, root, for the, decentralized, ones, to, survive because, if, they, survive, and, the, industry

moves, in, that, way, then, i, think, that, we have very, i, mean, if, we, focus, on, centralized systems, and, then they, get, shut, down, and, then, the, game, is over, and, there's, nothing, more, for, me, to analyze that's, why, i, try, to, make, sure, that, we keep, things, as, decentralized, as, possible and, that's, why, i, have, been, a, proponent of, bitcoin, for, very, long but, if, uh, there, is, another, system, that comes, along, and, it, can uh, flaunt, their, wings in, a, way, that, uh, is, interesting, you, know i'm, not, gonna say, that, i, just, want, this, single, life form uh, to, persist, i, want, the, evolutionary process, to, produce

the, absolute, uh, best, uh, winner, and, in order, to, do, that uh, you, have, to, um uh, you, you, can't, you, can't, lock, your mind into, a, single, frame, of, thinking, and one, of, the, what's, happened, what, happened to, me, interacting, with, the, bitcoin, space was, that uh, in, 2017, uh, what, happened, was, that, you saw, all, these, other cryptocurrency, projects, pop, up, and, you had, tons, of capital, flowing, into, icos, and, all, of them, market, them marketed, themselves, as, the, next, bitcoin that, had, unlimited uh, scalability, no, fees, and, uh perfect, decentralization, and, i, saw, that

a, large, of, the, community, that, could, that could, have, become, bitcoiners, and that, could, have, contributed, to, our, goals of, breathing, this, life, form or, helping, this, life, form, uh, develop were, uh, directed, in, the, wrong, direction and, i, and, i, knew, that, because, of, my computer, science, background, i, was was, uh, and, i, i i, actually, my, master's degree, in, computer, science, i, did uh, study, i, took, my, degree, to specifically arrange, it, around, the, cryptographic primitives, that, underpin blockchain, technology, so, my, master thesis, that, i, wrote, in, 2015 was, about, blockchain, technology, so, i knew, that, i, had, the, ability, to dive, deeply, into, these, different, white

papers, and, understand which, projects, are, poorly, constructed so, i, took, it, upon, myself, to try, to, educate, or, help, people understand, which, projects, are, the, wrong directions if, we, want, to, create, everlasting life, forms, so the, reason, that, i, became, very, popular, in the, bitcoin, industry was, because, they, uh, they, they they, used, to, call, me, the, altcoins, player they, viewed, me, as, a, person, that attacked, bitcoin, and, you, know, i, had confidence, i, had i, had, uh, meetups, that, i, would, go, to here, in, sweden, where, they, would, you, know

basically before, i, went, up, on, stage, they, called let's, bring, on, the, altcoin, slayer, and then, everyone, applaused and, that, made, me, very, very, likable everyone, liked, me, in, the, bitcoin industry, and, of, course, i liked, being, liked, by, a, lot, of, people, a lot but, my, i, my, intellectual interest, in, this, space, has, never, been tribal, in, the, sense, that, i, just, want my, coin, to, survive, i, i i, zoom, out, and, i, just, want, the, industry to, survive in, order, for, the, industry, industry, to survive, it, means, that we, need, to, make, the, best, decisions

possible, so what, happened, to, me, was, that, i, noticed some, types, of, research, going, on, in, the ethereum, side, of, things, uh, if, you if, you, want, if, we, want, to, get, specific it, was, actually uh, the, ability, that, you, could, construct uh, layer, two, solutions, on, top, of ethereum that, provided very, very, attractive, decentralization properties, whilst, also, preserving much, much, more, of, the, ux advantages, than, for, instance, lightning does, so, i, think, that, lightning, is, very

good, at, being, decentralized but, i, don't, think, that, lightning, has, a great, user, experience whereas, if, you, look, at, the, roll-up, it's it, has, a, very, high, degree, of decentralization, because, they've, solved the so-called, data, availability, problem that's, used, to haunt, these, their, two, solutions, on ethereum, protocols, before but, they, solve, that, problem, and, a roll-up, functions, very, much in, a, way, as, a, side, chain, functions, where maybe, maybe, if, i'm, getting, too complicated, with, things, but, if, i, put, it simply in, a, roll-up, what, you, can, do, if, you, have an, ethereum, address like, right, now, i, can, send, you, money and, an, endless, amount, of, money, or, well not, endless, but, i, can, send, you, any

amount in, my, wallet, to, your, wallet on, the, roll, up, without, you, even, knowing about, the, roll-up, system, existing without, you, running, a, node all, you, have, to, do, is, generate, the private, key, give, me, the, public your, ethereum, address, and, i, can, send, you for, low, fees at, an, excellent, user, experience, i, can send, that, money, to, you whereas, in, lightning, that's, not, possible the, recipient, has, to, run, a, lightning node they, need, to, have, inbound, liquidity, in order, to, accept, the, payment so, when, i, noticed, this uh, that, the, layer, two, systems, on ethereum um, were, uh, providing benefits, that, we, couldn't, do, in, bitcoin

because we, don't, have, statefulness, we, don't, have uh, and, if, we, look, at, something, like, zk rollups, we, don't, even, have, the um, we, don't, even, have, the, uh, the, the the, uh, the, virtual, virtual, machine, in bitcoin, or op, codes, if, you, will, we, don't, ha, i, don't know, if, you're, familiar, with, the, word but, bitcoin, basically, operates, on something, called, opcodes and, each, op, codes, executes, a programmatic, function, and, we, don't, have complex, enough, op, codes, in, bitcoin, to create, something, like, ezk up, and, zk, roll, ups, and, optimistic, roll ups, are, excellent layer, two, constructions, and, we, can't build, those in, bitcoin, unless, we, upgrade, the, system in

a, little, in, in, some, way, so that, made, me, um, you, know i, tried, to, i, thought, that, you, know, i, had this, naive theory, that, because, i, had, been, a, bitcoin for, so, long, and, they i, was, the, old, coin, slayer, and, everything and, i, thought, that, everyone really, believed, me, when, i uh, that, i, was, intellectually, honest i, thought, that, i, had, made, enough progress, as, a, bitcoiner, and demonstrating how, much, i'm, committed, to, the, right goals, and, ideals that, when, i, say, that, there, is, something happening, in, the, ethereum, space, that, we should, pay

interest, to, because, it moves, it, moves, the, needle, in, terms, of technological, innovation i, thought, that, they, would, believe, me, uh but, they, didn't, what, happened, instead uh, they, called, me, uh, peter, todd, called me, potentially, dangerous and, john, carollo, uh, basically called, me, um i, don't, know, if, he, called, me, a, scammer or, many, of, them, called, me, an, idiot and, rejected, uh, they, thought, that, i'd become, a, [ __ ], corner, but, yeah, [ __ ] corner, is, basically, what, happened, they started, psychology excommunicated, from, a, religion, it, feels like, a, little, bit, by, the, high, priest

yes, that's, that's, very, much, how how it, felt, like, and, i, um you, know, i, try, to, uh say, like, you, know, if, you, want, to, perfect the, like you, know, i'm, still, on, your, team, and, i think, like, if, you, want, to, make bitcoin, the, best, it, can, possibly, be, then we need, to, look, at, all, types, of, innovation that, is, happening, in, the, cryptocurrency space all, of, that, is, relevant, it, doesn't matter, where, it, comes, from, um and, i, think, that, people, like and, i, don't, want, to, mention, names, but there's, a, lot, of, people, that, just inherently, mistrust, any, type, of innovation, that, comes

outside, of, the, bitcoin, uh, community, and that, i, think, that, that, comes, from ignorance, that, it's, because, they, don't have, the, ability, to i, mean, it's, just, a, technological, system the roll-ups, are, a, technological construction, it's, objectively objectively, defined doesn't, matter, at, all, uh, who's, the author if, you, just, look, at, the, code, and, that, is a, part, of, the, bitcoin, philosophy, that, we don't, care about, who, satoshi, nakamoto, is, we, care about, the, code, and, what, it, can, do so, i, really, don't, understand, how, you, can be, so against, uh, innovation, coming, out, of other, projects if, the, results, of of, what what, the, technology, can, provide

is, actually helping, you, that, seems, very, much, to, me like, some, just you, know, tribalism, and, unintellectual uh, yeah, like, you, said, religious, type, of behavior that, saddens, me, a, great, deal, and actually, i i, i, said, that, it, broke, my, heart, to, see bitcoiners not, being, able, to, take, this, in, because it, did, it, did, break, my, heart, and it, made, my, uh, entire cryptocurrency, uh, experience, completely different realizing, that, you, know, we, weren't uh, people, didn't, see, it, the, same, way, as i, did, and, i am, still, trying, to, do, what, i, can, to to, work, for, the, bitcoin, system, but, i, do

see so, much, things, happening, inside, of, the ethereum, system that, i, think, is, really, really interesting, as, well, and, now i, mean, bitcoin, is, this, digital, gold, and i, do, believe, that, bitcoin, has legs, as, a, digital, gold, but, uh, and, and, i am, following, the the, innovations, in, bitcoin, like, taproot upgrades, i, do, think, that's, interesting but, um, i, mean, if, you, are, if, you, are intellectually, curious, and, uh, you, want to, see what, you, can, do, with, the, blockchain protocol um, then, it's, more, interesting, to just, as, a, researcher, to, look, at, what's happening, inside, of ethereum, right, now, and, one, of, the, things

that, made, me um, uh, that, actually, cemented uh, my, understanding, that, bitcoiners weren't acting, in, a, good, faith, technological uh, view, on, these, things, was, that after, uh, zk, roll, ups were, presented, and, i, tried, to, i, try, to to, to, bring, a, zk, rollups, as, a, is, a research project, to, the, bitcoin, community, and, i asked, them, on, twitter, like, let's, look, at this, research, research, that, is, being done and, isn't, it, quite, fantastic, what they've, been, able, to, achieve and, everyone, said, no, no, no, that's, just com, complete, [ __ ]

that, comes, from, italics, computer, scam nonsense, pre-mind, [ __ ], blah, blah blah, blah then, uh, greg, maxwell, gregory, maxwell who's, the one, of, the, most, respected, and, original uh long-time, contributors, to, the, bitcoin system, he, came, out, and, said, that yeah, zk, roll, ups, those, are, awesome, but they, were, actually, my, idea, look, at, this forum, post, that, i, wrote, in, 2013 and, i, and, i, was, like, you, see, like, the developers the, the, the, most, knowledgeable developers, of, bitcoin actually, resonates, so, much, uh with, the, uh, how, good

and, how, useful, this, technology, is, that they've, actually, been, trying, to, create it, themselves and, now, that, it, has, been, finished because, the, ethereum, foundations and, other, uh, cryptographic, like, the zcash, community, has worked, so, much, on, perfecting, uh, zero knowledge, proofs, those, are, now, efficient enough, that, we, can, actually, use, them now, that, they, are, here, uh and, and, and, now, bitcoiners, are, saying you know, they're, calling, it, a, scam even, though, that, you, know, we've, been trying, to, create, these, primitives, in bitcoin, for, such, a, long, time so, that, just, made, me, you, know, how, what can, i, argue, with you, know, there, even, the, bitcoiners designers, themselves wanted, this, and, i, think, there's, just

this, big, gap, in, the, bitcoin, community where the, developers, like, the, the, the, the, the high, priests, of, bitcoin like, the, the, people, on, twitter, uh, they have uh, one, understanding, they, have, a, limited understanding, of, the, bitcoin, system and, they, but, they're, very, uh, the, the, the tones, that, the, the, how, they, phrase themselves, and, how how, how, they, act, and, how, they, behave they, think, that, they're, carrying, the torch, for uh, the, bitcoin, developers, that, they're they're, they're they're, preaching, the, gospel, of, the, the the, bitcoin, the, core, views, of, the, uh smartest, people, in, bitcoin but, many, times, they, aren't, and, that's, my problem

that, many, times, the, people, who, are, the loudest, in, bitcoin are, sometimes, uh, are not, the, most, uh, educated or, knowledgeable, about, bitcoin, so, then, i get, into, arguments, about, these with, these, people, because, uh, you, know it's, usually i, don't, have, that, much, disagreements with, real, bitcoin, developers, i, just, have disagreements, with, people, who, don't understand, what, bitcoin developers, uh, truly, think and, so, but, me, being, very, vocal, on, the person, on, twitter, the, bitcoin, developers aren't, that, vocal uh, on, twitter, put, me, in, a, different category, and

i, had, to, you, know, i, thought, i, thought, i would, be, able, to, bridge, the, gap, between the, ethereum, and, the, bitcoin, communities but, i, ended, up, becoming, this controversial, figure uh, ethereums, call, me, a, bitcoin maximalist bitcoiners, call, me, a, [ __ ], coiner i'm, trying, to, stick, true, to, the, facts and, i'm, trying, to, stick, true, to technological innovation, and, progress, if, that makes, a, ship, cleaner, and, a, maximalist, of me at, the, same, time, so, be, it, i'm, not, going to, change who, i, am, and, what, i, say, and, uh i, don't, want, to, i, just, add, a, nuance, of humility, to, that, because now, i'm, making, it, sound, like, i'm, the

smartest, guy, in, the, room, and everyone, else, is, stupid that, only, happens, most, of, the, time, some of, the, time, i'm, i'm, i'm, completely i'm, completely, wrong, i'm, kidding, uh, i, am i'm, not, the, smartest, i'm, not, you, know, i don't, consider, myself, to, be uh, you, know, so, much, smarter, than everybody, else uh, you, know, i'm, also, in, the, space, just trying, to, learn, as, much, as, i, can, and figure things, out, uh, and, and this, is, the, situation, that, i've, gotten myself, into yeah, eric, i i've, also, attempted, to, try and, bridge, the, gap, between, bitcoiners and, ethereans, and, it, seems, to, be just, an, insurmountable, chasm, to, to, cross

so, my, question, to, you, to, really, finish off, this, this, part, of, this, conversation before, we move, on, to, other, things, is, that, you, know you, talk, about, bitcoin, and, its, merits and, then, you, also, talk, about, the, bitcoin community and, their, rigidity, and, thought did, your, experience, with, being, um you, know, being, called, a, [ __ ], coiner, by the, bitcoin, max, lee, back, maxie's, and everything, that, you've, talked, about did, that, change, your, stance, towards bitcoin the, system, at, all, or, do, you, separate the, community, from, bitcoin, and say, look, well, there's, this, tribal community, around, bitcoin but, it, doesn't, really, impact, the, bitcoin the, system, bitcoin, btc, the, asset, bitcoin the, protocol or, did, your, reaction, in, relationship with, the, bitcoin, community, also, change

your, stance, to, what, you, think, bitcoin really, is yeah, i, mean, uh when, i, started, to, talk, about, zk, roll, ups and, the necessary, op, codes, that, we, would, need, to implement in, uh, bitcoin, in, order, to, facilitate, a state, machine, and, an, opcode, that, can interpret, the, zero-knowledge, proof, and also, just, seeing, how, the, discussions, are on, drive, chains, is, going i, am, a, little, bit, more, bearish, these days, that, the, types, of, innovations, that i, think are, necessary, to, create, a, useful uh, a, user-friendly, payment, mechanism out, of, bitcoin, uh, have, been, restricted

because, uh, you, know, because, bitcoin if, we're, going, to, upgrade, and, and, make the, system, as useful, as, possible, then, we, need, to i, need, to, make, sure, that, when, i, speak, to the, bitcoin, community, and, the, developers speak, to, the, bitcoin, community that, they, understand, uh, what, is, the, most rational, path, forward and, if, we, become, stupid, as, a, community, a stupid, community, cannot, make, a, coin survive, good, and, i, don't, think, many bitcoins, believe, that, bitcoin, is, perfect as, it, is, and, it, just, needs, to, continue on, and, then, it, will win, the, world, but, uh, it's, not, like, that i, mean you're, not, gonna, have, you, don't, have, the capacity, in, bitcoin

uh, for, everyone, to, open, even, lightning channels and, even, if, we, even, even, if, we say, that, we, did, have, the, capacity, to open, up, lightning, channels, using, channel factories, and other, things, that, you, can, do, with lightning, um like, then, even, then, uh, the, user experience, of, lightning, may, not, be uh, sufficiently, well, equipped, to actually, become, the, payment, mechanism that, the, entire, world, uses, so i, do, think, that, there, are, challenges, to be, overcome uh, when, it, comes, to, making, bitcoin perfect i, do, still, think, i, do, still, think, that bitcoin is, uh, uh, the the, project, that, i, like, the, most, but, yes

getting, shunned, from well, i, wouldn't, say, i'm, shunned, you, know i, still, have i'm, still, relatively, liked, by a, part, of, the, bitcoin, community so, i'm, not, like, completely, shunned, but yes, of, course, you, know [Music] it, broke, my, heart, and, it, also, um uh, made, me, perhaps diversify, my, portfolio, uh, of you, know, i, didn't, hold, i've, made, it public, that, i, didn't, hold, ether um, um, let's, talk, about, that can, we, talk, about, that, eric, hey, bankless nation, i, hope, you're, enjoying, this conversation, with, eric, wall, thus, far we, are, about, to, turn, to, a, recent, tweet

that, eric, wall, just, made, where, he, said that i, stopped, being, wrong, about, ethereum sometime, in in, 2020, where, eric, wald, decided, to change, his, mind, and, be, more, optimistic about, the, future, of, ethereum uh, so, we, asked, what, what, did, it, take, for him, to, really, change, his, mind after, he, came, uh, after, he, had, he, had these, negative, experiences, with, these bitcoiners we, also, turned, to, an, article, he, wrote that, really, impacted, me, where, he, titled it, proof, of, stake, is, less, wasteful, and this, actually, ultimately, became, one, of the, core components, of, ultrasound, money, this thesis, that proof, of, stake, is, inherently, extremely efficient, because, it has, to, award, the, least, amount, of, ether because, the, people, that, are, staking, are the, most, bullish, on, it, so, they'll compete, for, the, least, amount, of, ether

possible, and, that's, why proof-of-stake, doesn't, have, to, issue, all that, much, eric, wall, as, a, contrarian, lone wolf, investor, has, been, through, so, many cryptocycles, so, we, finish, off, this conversation, just, asking, eric about, what, does, it, take, to, really, make it, through, this, industry in, a, multi-cycle, time, frame and, so, he, has, a, ton, of, great, lessons, and takeaways, that, i'm, really, excited, to share, with, you, guys, guys in, the, second, half, of, the, show, but, first we, have, to, take, a, moment, to, talk, about some, of these, fantastic, sponsors that, make, the, show, possible, balancer, is defy's, most, powerful, automated, market maker typical, amms, just, have, two, tokens, inside of, one, liquidity, pool, which, can, lead, to fractured, liquidity, across, the, many pairs, in, the, device with, balancer, you, can, access, the, full power, of, multiple, tokens, inside, of, one

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you, can, open, up, a, free, account, in, under three, minutes, at, gemiini.com go, bank, list, and, if, you, trade, more, than a, hundred, dollars, within, the, first 30, days, after, sign, up, you'll, be, gifted, a free, 15 bitcoin, bonus, check, them, out, at gemini.com go, bankless, what, we've, seen, up, to, this point, i, think, is uh, someone, who, is, a, digital, biologist looking, at, these, systems, also, not, a bitcoin, maximalist, may, be, more, of, a decentralization optimizer, decentralization, maximalist and, it, seems, to, be, the, case, that that's, part, of, the, reason, that, they called, you, the, altcoin, slayer is, because, you, called, a, lot, of, the altcoins, out, on, their [ __ ], on, the, stuff, that, wouldn't, work, uh

but, that, intellectual, pursuit, also brought, you, to, layer, twos, and, ethereum and, some, of, the, improvements, in, in roll-ups, that, are, being, made and, you, saw, the, potential, for, uh decentralization in, these, layer, twos, that, didn't, quite exist, in uh, bitcoin, i, i, put, this, tweet, out uh, i, guess, a, couple, weeks, ago, um, i, was wrong, about, eth, i, said, no, one, actually says, that i, was, wrong, about, eth, but, a, lot, of people, should, be, saying, it i, get, a, lot, of, replies, of, course, it's just, you, know, it's, fun, on, twitter, to like poke, the, bear, a, little, bit, eric, not, that you, do, that, at, all it, is, fun, though, um, and, then, your, reply was, the, one, that

actually, was, most, interesting, to, me, out of, the the, many, hundreds, of, replies, that, that that, threat, got and, you, said, this, 2016, i, was, wrong, about eth, when, i, sold, it, for, six, dollars, after the, dow, hawk hack, 2017, i, was, wrong, about, eth, when, i rushed, home, to, grab, my, 2fa, exchange login after, the, first, enterprise, ethereum alliance, announcement, think, i'd, missed the, rally 2020, i, stopped, being, wrong, about, eth, and i, think, you, linked to, a, specific, tweet, that, you, made, in august 2020, presumably, you, purchased some, eth, at, that, time, before you, hadn't, had, as, much, can, you, talk about, that, journey, i, think, a, puzzle

piece, to, the, journey, is um, bullish, on, rollups, maybe, bullish, on ethereum, scalability in, this, new, avenue, but, was, that, the, only part, of, the, journey, tell, us, about, the journey yeah, yeah, uh, first, of, all, i, think, the tweet, that, you're, referring, to uh, i, bought, uh, ethereum and, i, had, an, ethereum, before, that, but, i did acquire, as, much, heat, as, i, could, when, it was, trading, around 110, uh, dollars, and, this, was, during, the covet, uh, the, coronavirus, driven, crash, in must, have, been, march, 2020 but, yeah, i, did, i, i, was, wrong, about, you know, in, in, 2016, during, the, dow, hack

i, was, uh, like, you, said, a decentralization, maximalist and, when, i, saw, that the, way, that, i, thought, about, ethereum was, that this, was, an, immutable, attempt, to, build an, immutable execution, engine, for autonomous, programs, and, the, dao, hack showed, that, social, consensus, overrules uh the, programmatic, code, which, means, that and, at, this, point, in, time, in, that, point in, time, the, project, was heavily, centralized, around, the, metallic thought uh, it's, become, it's, it's, improved, from that, now

um, so, so, i, i, didn't, i, didn't, think, that uh, after, the, dow, hack, and seeing, that, uh, actually, i, saw, the, reason that, i, sold, was, just seeing, that, the, dow, got, hacked, and, i that's, when, i, immediately, just, rushed and sold, all, my, ethernet, at, six, dollars and, then, i, was, skeptical, whether, or, not fixing, surgically, fixing, the, dao, hack using, social, consensus, was, the, right path, now, i, do, think, that, it, is, the, it was, the, right uh, decision, to, make, i've, changed, my, my mind, there but, uh, i, i, i, let's, perhaps, address the, thing, that, you, asked, specifically like, when, did, i, actually start, to, come, around, to, the, ethereum

system, and i, think, um, i, think, it, was, probably around, i, mean, in, 2017, that's when, i, heard, about, the, enterprise ethereum alliance, and, ethereum, was, trading, at, 11 and, i, was, at, work, listening, to, this uh, this, this, webcast, where, it, was, being announced, and, i i, understood, how, huge, this, was, going, to be, enterprises, that, were going, to, use, ethereum, now, the, enterprise interior, the, enterprise, ethereum alliance, didn't, turn, out, to, be, that big, of, a, deal, from, my, perspective, anyway they, haven't, been, that uh, major, of, a, contribution, but, it, did bring so, much, um, like, validation to, ethereum, as, a, project, uh, so, i, knew

that, that, was, going, to, be, massive, and that's, why, i i, i, rushed, home, to, to, acquire, more, eath at, that, time but, i, would, i, wouldn't, say, that, i, was like, an, uh, an ethereum, believer, at, that, point, i, just saw, that, there, was, gonna, be uh, probably, a, rush, in, the, price, at, that point, what, happened, was, that i, was, working, in, the, traditional financial uh, sector, as, a, technology, technology provider, company, so, we, were, building, the company, that, i, worked, for was, called, sinnover, not, a, lot, of, people know, about, this, name, but in, terms, of, providing, exchanges like, like, the, new, york, stock, exchange, or the, australian, securities, exchange, like

it, changes, where, stocks and, other, financial, instruments, are traded, uh there, are, two, large, companies, or, there were, two, large companies, providing, matching, engines, and clearing house, technologies, uh, to, the, world and, that, was, nasdaq, was, the, largest, one they, actually, had, their, market, their market, technology, division, here, in sweden, where, they, developed, the, tech that, they, sell, to, other, exchanges and, the, second, company, is, also, here, in sweden, it, was, called, synovo and, they, were, the, largest, competitors with, each, other, for, 20 years, and, i, joined, that, firm, right, after i, finished, my master, thesis, on, blockchain, technology and, actually, wrote, the, master's, thesis for, synovo, and, the, thesis, was, about

how, can, we, use, uh, blockchain, technology to to, create, a, decentralized, security settlement, system um, and, then, i, got, to, work, with, the cenober, for quite, a, few, years, and, i, very, quickly became, the, head, of, the, cryptocurrency and, blockchain, strategy strategy there, and, i, was, involved, well, not i, was, to, some, extent, involved, in, the uh, you, know, i, got, to, learn, how, do, we supply, these, exchanges, with, technology like, when, an, exchange, wants, to, upgrade like, in, a, mac, if, a, matching, engine run, by, the, australian, securities exchange, wants, to, upgrade, their, system and, how, slow, that, process, was they, had, to, get, the, technology, from, a

technology, provider, and, then, it, goes through, all, this you, know, q, a, and, testing, and, uh it's, just, these, types, of, things could, take, five, years, to, move from, one, system, to, another, the, types, of innovation, that, i, was, seeing, happening in the, internet, overall, you, didn't, see, that in, the, financial world, at, all, and, you, didn't, have, open permissionless, innovation in, traditional, finance, it, was, very clunky, and you, had, all, these, antiquated, systems that, were, interlinked, with, each, other and, the, way, that, the, securities and, also, the, banking, system, has developed, is, you, know, you, have, the paper-based, processes, and, then, you

digitize, those, paper, processes to, emulate, what, you, could, do, with, pen and, paper into, digital, uh, processes, and, then, you just, built, on, from, that and, you, ended, up, with, this, incredibly complex of, a, system, with, different, moving, parts that like, if, we, wanted, to, recreate, the security, settlement, system and, clearing, system, of, today, i, think, we would, have, done, it, completely differently but, we, cannot, you, cannot, change, the entire, plumbing, of, the, financial, world uh by, improving, the, current, system, i, think that, you, got, to, start, from, scratch and, i, think, that, if, you, want, to, start

from, scratch, and, you, want, to, give you, want, to, make, the [Music] the, if, you, want, to, make, the, if, you, want to, create, the, correct, environment for, innovation, then, you, have, to, look, at how, innovation, has, happened, on, the internet like, when, i, for, instance, if, i, get, in, if i, go, to when, i, went, to, the, us, i, visited, a crypto, conference, in, the, us, in, 2018 and, i, rented, a, car, a, jeep and, i, wanted, to, drive, through, the, nevada desert, to, go, to, las, vegas, which, was where, the, conference, was and, i, had, a, gps, system, there, and, the at, one, point, in, time, i, was, running, out

of, fuel and, uh, i, uh, took, i, used, the, gps, system to point, me, to, the, closest, uh, gas, station and, they, said, i, had, to drive, two, hours, to this, location, and, and, i, was, driving, on this uh, straight, road, for, two, hours, and, when i, arrived, there, two, hours, later and, now, i'm, almost, running, out, of, gas, i the, gps tells, me, that, this, this, is, the, first time, that, you, can, turn, around, your, car and, go, back, the, other, direction, and drive, four, hours that, way, instead, and, that's, the, closest uh, gas, station, so, i almost, i, almost, died, in, the, nevada desert, this, was, in, the, death, valley, part

of of, the, uh, of, the of, the, us, like, it's, close, to, the yosemite, uh national, park, so, i, almost, died, because of, this, shitty, gps, system and, it's, because, uh, the car, company, they, got, their, technology delivered, by, a, specific, technology provider provider, and, if, i, have, my, smartphone instead then, you, know, there, i, can, choose, between any, type, of map, app, i, can, choose, between, apple, maps google, maps, and, if, they, aren't, any, good there's, going, to, be, another, app and, that's, what, you, want, i, think, of traditional, finance as, this, jeep, where, i'm, restricted, to

this shitty, system, that, a, single, company, has developed, and, if, you, want, to, upgrade that, you, have, to, ask, the, company, give, us a, better gps, system, whereas, if, it's, the, internet then, you, can, have, all, people, from, all over, the, world deliver, apps, and, you, can, just, install the, best, one, and, use, the, best, one and, that's, why, uh, map, apps, on smartphones, are so, much, superior, than, than the, shitty, gps, systems, that, make, you, die in, the, nevada, desert uh, that, you, that, you, that, you'll, find in, the, traditional, world, so, i, want, that type, of uh, permissions, permissionless, innovation environment, to, happen, in, uh in, the, financial, world, and, i, wrote, a

long email, to, the, ceo, of, our, company, i, still have, it, it, was, in, 2019 where, i, told, him, that, you, know, the, what i'm, seeing, happening, in, ethereum is, exactly, this, vision, uh of, not, the, dying, in, the, nevada, desert because we're, having, permissionless, innovation for, financial, apps, happening right, now, in, ethereum, and, it's, going, to move, so, much, faster it's, going, to, it's, it's, and, because, we cannot, upgrade we, cannot, wait, for, a, thousand, engineers to, upgrade, a, thousand, antiquated uh, financial, systems, running, on, uh programming, languages, from, the, from, the 70s

that's, not, gonna, we're, not, gonna, get there, with, it, with, the, current, financial system but, cryptocurrency, like, ethereum platforms, like theorem, bring, us, a, clean, slate where, we, can, create, the, right, type, of environment, to, create the, best, type, of, of, uh, platform, for financial, innovation, so, i, think, that, we basically, have, like, when, the taxi, industry, had, their, uber, moment, i think, that the, traditional, finance, industry, is having, their, uber, moment, right, now and, i, go, and, i, meet, like, traditional, you know, market, making, companies, and financial institutions, and, you, know, i, think, that they, should, look, at, d5 and, uh, that, also, makes, it, complicated for, me, to, talk, with, bitcoins, because

they, hate, defy and, they, hate, defy, because, they, look, at all, their, rug, pulls, and, they, look, at, all the, scams but, i, think, that's, the, wrong, way, to think, about, it, because, you, could, have looked, at, bitcoin, in, 2011, and, you, could have, said well, the, only, thing, that, bitcoin, is, used for, is, to, buy, drugs, on silk, road, and, they, would, have, been correct, but it's, the, fundamental, properties, of, the system that, decides, what, you, can, do, with, it in, the, future, it's, not, how, it's currently, used, we, used, to, always, say bitcoin, is, always, used, to, say, well, yeah there's, a lot, of, people buying, drugs, doing, shaving, stuff, with bitcoin, but if, you, look, at, uh, a, car, for, instance uh, who, was, the, first, uh, which demographic, was, the, first, demographic, to

use, cars, well, the cars, were, very, very, expensive, normal people, couldn't, afford, cars but, people, that, were, making, bank robberies, they, uh could, spend, the, money, on, a, car, because that, could, make, them actually, escape, the, police, when, they robbed, the, bank uh, so, they, would, buy, cars, and, uh that's, why, uh, criminal, people, uh will, be, the, first, one, to, buy, bitcoin because, then, they, can, buy, drugs, and, they can, make, a, lot, of, money and, in, ethereum, there's, gonna, be, a lot of, people, that, are, making scams, but, if, you, just, focus, on, that initial, usage and, you, don't, think, about, what, can happen, with, the, technology it's, i, mean, it's, the, same, way, like, maybe internet

was, mostly, used, to, send, around pornographic, pictures, between, horny geeks at, one, point, in, time, it, didn't, mean, that the, internet, wasn't, going, to, change, the entire uh, the, entire, uh, world, of, finance, one day, and, i, have, described the, phi, as, like, a, few, an, hour, i, think we're, moving, away, away, from, it, but, i think that, i, have, described, a, few, a, year, ago, i described, d5 as, in, the, the, ascii, you, know, ascii as, cii version, like, the, ascii, porn, version of, the, internet, basically, but, we you, can, see, that, the, fundamental properties, are, there, everything, is working, kind, of, shitty

now, but, i, do, think, that, you, know, what's going, to, come, out, of, this industry, is, going, to, be, completely amazing, and change, the, entire, world, yeah, i, i, like the, metaphor, of, like, just, the, siloed data, providers, or, service, providers, for the, gps with, as, like, the, current, financial institution, whereas, defy, is, like, this massive, crucible, survival, of, the, fittest if, you, don't, if, you, aren't, a, good product, you're, not, going, to, make, it and, and, it's, all, done, on, this, one canonical, platform, right, it's, very, much like, the how, we, articulate, the, bowl, case, for, defy as, well, i, want, to, turn, to, uh, one, of, your also, ethereum, subjects, that, you've written, about, and, talked, about, in, the past, and this, was, really, a, pretty, like, at, least for, me, it, was, very, much, of, a

groundbreaking, article, for, how, i understood, proof, of, stake, and, that, was your proof, of, stake, is, less, wasteful, article and, this, was for, me, the, first, articulation, of, the nature, of, proof-of-stake, security, that is, ultimately, now, a, part, of uh, a, very, fundamental, piece, of, the ultrasound, money, thesis uh, and, and, so, the, the, way, that, um, you articulated, this, is, that you, it, was, like, you, articulated, the natural, efficiency, of, proof-of-stake systems, to, provide, security uh, and, the, way, that, i, articulated, this in, response, to, after, reading, this your, article, is, that, ethereum, naturally and, proof-of-stake, in, ethereum, naturally rewards, bullishness very, much, like, a, defy, yield, farm, right but, incentive, instead, of, the, incentives of, this, this, ethereum, native, yield, farm

which, is, proof, of, stake the, incentives, are, so, incredibly, uh strong, because, they, are, being, rewarded with ether, the, asset, and, naturally, the, cost of, proof, of, stake, is, the, how, much, you have, to, pay people, to, be, bullish, on, ethereum, and, if there, are, plenty, of, people, who, are, super super, bullish, on, ethereum, then, the actual cost, to, secure, ethereum, are, almost minimal and, eric, you, wrote, this, piece, back, at the, end, of, 2019, so um, one, i, want, to, ask, you, about, like, do you, has, your, mental, models, about, proof of, stake become, updated, at, all, since, then, uh, and how, do, you, articulate, this, the, same, kind of, thesis like, a, year, and, a, half, later, actually, i think, that

uh, you, know, i, spent, such, an, immense uh, amount, of, time, uh thinking, about, um, you, know, i, had, i, had you, know, i, was, very, influenced, by, paul stork as, a, friend, of, mine, now, uh, that i, was, very, much, in, the, same, way, as most, bitcoiners, at, the, time, thought, that uh you, can, it's, it's, it's, inherently impossible, to, create a, more, cost, efficient consensus, algorithm, because, you, have, a security, budget, which, means, you, have, a reward uh, that, can, be, formed, by miners, or, validators, and, uh

you're, always, gonna, be, able, to, everyone is, always, going, to spend, as, much resources, as, they, can, to, earn, that reward as, long, as, they're, still, profitable, so if, the, reward, is, a, hundred, dollars you're, gonna, spend, at, least, 99, dollars worth, of work, whether, it, be, locking, up, your capital, or burning, electricity, so, you, cannot, create a, more, uh, cost-effective, system, than what, proof-of-work already, is, and, that, was, the, way, that, i thought, about, it, and, then, you, have this, entire, conversation, around, okay well, uh, locking, up liquidity, uh, versus, burning, energy uh, if, we, contrast, those, two, things, uh

paul, stewart's argument, was, that, well, you, know, locking up, liquidity, also, has, a, cost uh, it, has, a, cost, that, now, you, make capital uh, inaccessible, to, society, that, could have, been put, to, bed, to, better, use, um that's, that's, a, very, very, uh, actually complicated uh, thing, that, i, go, through, in, the, piece and, there's, multiple ways, that, you, can, look, at, that, one, way that, you, can, look, at, it, is, that, okay, but when, you, lock, up, capital, uh, the, value doesn't, get, trapped there, it, actually, flows, back, to, the, like if, you, have, if, you, have, like, if, you, have bitcoin, and, we, take, 50 of, the, supplier, bitcoin, and, we, lock, it

up, and, only, 50 is, circulating, then, it's, gonna, and demand, can, only, go, into, the, circulating amount, of, the, supply, the, value, is, going to, rise, in, the in, the, in, the, uh, unlock, in, the circulating, pool, so you, cannot, fundamentally, trap, value, but the, the, the, nuance, there, that, i, go through, in, the, article, i, think is, that, uh, when, when, you, have uh, specific, parties, locking, up, their capital, i, mean the, the, the, participants, that, has, the the, this, capital, to, lock, up, they, are usually, people, that, have, accumulated resources and, people, that, have, accumulated resources, probably, have, some, type, of knowledge

and, when, they, lock, up, their, liquidity and, it, just, flows, back, and, it, gets splashed, over, this, uniform blob, of, people, then, you actually, do, lose, some, economic, potential because, it's, now yeah, yeah, concentrated, uh, portions, of liquidity, that, can, be, injected, into projects, that, can, it, can, be, invested, it can, be used, to, do, productive, things, now, it, just flows, back into, a, a, gray, blob, of, people, and, they don't, necessarily, like, if, everybody, if you, put a, hundred, dollars, in, every, a, person's pocket it, doesn't, necessarily, mean, that anything, exciting, is, gonna, happen they're, gonna, buy, a, hot, dog, and, then it's, over uh, whereas, this, single, investor, with, all that, capital

could, have, created, a, fantastic, business so, i, do, think, that there, is, uh, there, is, definitely, uh like, some, uh, there, is, a, cost, to society, for, locking, up, liquidity, but if, like, you, said, if, the, person, that, is blocking, up, that, liquidity if, what, he, wanted, to, do, with, that liquidity, was, just, to, hold, ether then, it, then, there, is, no, there, is, no negative uh, consequence, and, that's, what, i realized, in, the, article uh, that, uh, if, you, have, these bullish, people, on, ether, then, they, are they, are, going, to, be, the uh, and, they, when, they, are, staking, ether they're, not, causing, any

cost, to, to, this, society, overall and, and, uh, just, in, the, same, way, that we're, talking, about, in, bitcoin, mining the, people, who, are, going, to, be, the, most profitable, uh, mining, bitcoin, are, the ones, that, have, access, to, the, cheapest source, of, electricity, and, that, that's usually uh, people, that, are, monetizing, excess uh, renewable, energy, like, the, energy, that they, can't, use, for, anything, else, they can, only, throw, it, away, or, mine, bitcoin with, it, their, cost, for, their, electricity is, zero so, that's, going, to, be, the, bitcoiners think, that's, going, to, be, the, predominant source, of electricity, uh, for, bitcoin and, if, you, apply, that, same, length, of thinking, to, ethereum

then, what, is, the, cheapest, source, of liquidity, in, ethereum well, it, is, the, people, who, are, committed to, holding, ethereum, for, a, very, long, time they, have, no, alternative, cost, there's nothing, else, that, they, would, have, done with, the, capital, they, have zero, cost, to, to, to, to, to, use, this capital, to, to, stake, either they, do, take, on, some, risk, there's, always of, course, some, risk, there, must, be, some risk, with, staking but, there, is, no, cost, to, society, and with, mining, you, still, have, like, even, if you, say, that, all, the, energy, in, the, world uh, that, is, being, used, to, mine, bitcoin you, still, have, the, cost, of, actually producing, the, asics, the, asic, miners, you cannot, make, uh those, that, cost, disappear, you, cannot, say that, that, is, 100

produced, by, renewable, er, you, know, you didn't, get, the, steel from, from, wind, i, mean, so so, because, of, that proof, of, stake, is, actually, less, wasteful and, i, do, think if, ethereum, becomes, a form, of, money, or, something, that, people believe, in, like an, investment, that, people, want, to, hold the, i, don't, want, to, go exactly, into, that, right, but, if, we, just take, us, a, a, a, cryptocurrency, system, that runs, some, proof, of, stake, and, we, say, that this, system is, going, to, be, the, hard, sound, money, that we're, going, to, use, in, the, future then, there's, going, to, be, tons, of, people that, just, hold, the, currency because, hard, money, inherently, increases

in, value in, alignment, with, the, the, output, of society growing, the the, production, rate, of, society, uh, as that, improves, it's, going, to, increase, the the, the, the, value, of, the, currency, that's how, economic that's, how, economics, work, and, it, works very, well, when, the, supply, of, the currency, is, fixed so, yes, i, do, think, that, what's, written, in that, article very, much, you, know, i, think, i, came, to, the to, the, conclusion, and, i paul, actually, wants, to, debate, me, about this, article, he, thinks, that i, am, wrong, and, we, have, scheduled uh, a, preliminary, debate we, haven't, set, a, date, but, we, have

decided, that, we, are, going, to discuss, this, in, deep, detail, at, one, point however, other, people, say, that, they, want us to, do, it, in, written, format, because, it's too, difficult, to, go, through, these, very very, complex, nuances online, but, i, hope, i, answered, your question, that, yes, what, i, wrote, there, is very, much how, i, think, about, it, today, eric, what's so, fascinating, to, me, about, this, is, like bringing, this, uh, full, circle, to, sort, of like human, beings, as, a, having, collective power human, beings, is, almost, like, a, an, ant colony, right, so, like what, is, money, money, is, um the, collective, thought, of, a society, of, a, group, of, human, beings, in

terms, of, where, they, want, to, store, their wealth, and, where, they, want, to, store their, value, right, there's, there's, almost like, this, mimetic quality, uh, to, money, what, is, the, best money, it's, the, money that, everyone, else, chooses, uh, to, be money and, what's, interesting, to, me, about, your argument, is, like we've, talked, about, this, with, justin drake, in, in, ultrasound, money, which, is like an, ultrasound, money, episode, uh, which, is like, if, a network, a, crypto, economic, network, like bitcoin, or, ethereum has, a, monetary, premium, in, its, base asset, it, gets, this, economic, security for, free, essentially, and, you, just extended, that, in, 2019, with, your, article

to, proof, of, stake, so, like, if, there's, a bunch, of, people who, are, bullish, about, ether, and, they hold, their, ether they're, going, to, do, this, at, the, lowest possible, cost, it's, almost, like, the network gets, economic, security, at, a, discount why, because, the, base, layer, asset, has this, special, privilege in, that, it, is, a, monetary, asset, and, not all cryptocurrency, networks, get, to, have, that privilege, bitcoin, of, course, has, had, it we, would, argue, on, bank, list, that ethereum, is, also getting, it, but, i, noticed, something, eric that, you, stopped, short, of calling, ether, sound, money, and, i'm curious, because you, have, um, this, history, in, bitcoin

what, is, holding, you, back, from, thinking about ether, as, sound, money, or, am, i, wrong, about that, do, you, think ether, is, sound, money, right, now um, i, think, i, think, i, think, you, know my, answer, already, and, i, think, that, um i, mean, bitcoin, is, a, reaction, to that, money, can, be, so, easily, manipulated by, politics, in, the, central, banking system and, uh, bitcoin, goes in, the, completely, different, direction, it goes, it, takes, us, back, to, the gold, standard, and, we, we, adhere, to the, philosophy, of, bitcoin, and, bitcoiners all, over, the, world

we, care, most, of, all, about the, um, predictability, of, the, monetary policy of, bitcoin, and, we, view, that, as, one, of the, most foundational, properties, of, a, good sound, money, whereas, in, ethereum, you, have a, different, philosophy, where you, care, more, about, securing, ethereum you, want, to, secure, your defi, systems, by, having, a, sufficient security, budget, for, that and, you, don't, have, any, qualms, about changing the, emission, rate, of, ether, to accommodate, what, the, system, needs so, the, reason, why

i, do, think, of, bitcoin, as, having a, upper, hand, in, becoming, a, dominant store, value, and, the dominant, medium, of, exchange, is, because the, meme of, a, strong, monetary, immutable, monetary policy whether, or, not, that, actually, factually works, in, practice, or, not we, know, that, reality, factions, and, facts don't, actually [Music] have, so, much, influence, into, the, thinking and, brains, of, humans but, it, it, it, is, the, means, that, that count so, i, think, that, the, meme, of, an, immutable predictable, uh, monetary, policy, that bitcoin, has, historically, followed, uh

whereas, ethereum, hasn't, and also, the, the, the, very, beautiful, uh inception, of, bitcoin, of, the, satoshi nakamoto who, never, ever, uh spent, a, penny, of, of, the, early, bitcoins that, he, made, and, then, he, disappeared, and had, no, influence, in, the, system bitcoin, is, much, more, this, abstract, brand it's, just, bitcoin, you, don't, know, who, the founder, is, and, the, monetary policy, is, immutable, it, aligns, so, it, fits so, much, well uh, uh, it's, if, it, fits, so, much, better into, this, category, of, a, digital, gold than, ethereum, does, and, i, do, think, that there, is, uh, very, strong, reasons, why, gold

was, the, most, formidable form, of, money, for, thousands, of, years, in human, history and, i, think, that, the, cryptocurrency, that better emulates, those, properties, are, gonna, win in, the, memetic, game of, of, creating, a, sound, uh, money, because after, all, it, is, a, magnetic, game uh, now, i, don't, think, that, the, bitcoin, is gonna the, mistake, that, bitcoiners, did, uh, was focusing, on, the, stock, to, flow, ratio which, is, um, i mean, you, know gold, has, an, emission, rate, right, uh there's, new, gold being, brought, out, dug, out, of, the, ground uh that, isn't, 100, predictable, but, all, we know, that, is roughly, is, around, two, percent, every, year

uh so, but, but, because, bitcoin, is, supposed to, have, a, fixed, supply then, uh, this, whole, idea, of you, know, that, you you, know, the, stop, to flow, model, of, course i, think, perhaps, most, your, listeners, do, i mean now, so, many, bitcoiners, think, that, the reason, that, bitcoin, is, going, to, be successful, and, hyper, bitcoinization, is going, to, happen, it's, because, the price, is, going, to, go, up, so, much, just because, bitcoin, has, a, fixed, supply but, if, you, are, now, in, that, frame, of thinking and, now, ethereum, is, going, to, burn, a portion, of, its, fees after, eip, 1569, gets, activated and, ethereum, could, create, it, and, it's already, creating, a, meme, of, itself

uh, in, having, a, deflationary, supply, or, a supply, that, shrinks, because, the, gas, fees are, being, burned then, now, the, stock, to, flow, ratio, of uh, of, ethereum isn't, even, infinity, it, goes, into, the negative, because, it, actually, goes, into the, complex, number, plane so, i, think, bitcoiners have, shot, themselves, in, the, foot, by, play trying, to, play, the, memetic sound, money, game, by, looking, at, the, stock to, flow, ratio, and, you, know, how, much, i did to, uh, try, to, get, bitcoins, away, from, that uh because, i, knew, that, this, would, uh, [ __ ] everything, up, for, bitcoin, if, we, focused on, too, much, on, the, stock, flow, ratio

and, that's, why, i've, spent, the, last, year or, so trying, to, get, people, away, from the, stock, to, flow, ratio, uh, obsession and, getting, them, more, focused, on, the rainbow, chart which, doesn't, have, this, uh supply-centric, uh way, to, analyze, how, the, price, should develop, and, that's, that's, why, i'm, now, uh the, rainbow, guy uh, because, i, i, knew, that, this, was, going to, happen, i, tried, to, get, people, away from from, the, start, to, flow, ratio, uh, i ultimately, i, think, i, perhaps, failed and, because, of, that, ethereum, is, gonna uh, have, a, great, uh, chance to, compete, in, the, mimetic, game, of, being

sound, money that's, the, bitcoiner's, fault, on, the, road they, created, this, situation, for themselves and, the, way, that, i, uh, the, way, that, i how, i, acted, in, that, situation, is, i, just i, i uh, i, had, i, built, a, larger ether, exposure, in, my, bags, because uh, in, in, 2001, one, year, ago i, i, i, knew, that, uh uh, first, of, all, i, knew, that, the, layer two, solutions, uh for, ethereum, were, gonna, uh, work, out and, i, knew, that, um i, i, also, knew, that, the, uh, uh, there's going, to, come, a, tons, of, people, into

uh, into, the, cryptocurrency, debate, and they're, gonna, think, that uh, bitcoin, uses, too, much, energy and, as, uh, also, i understood, that, eip, this, happened, a, bit later, i, think, that, a, while, later, that, i understood, that, the supply, of, ethereum, is, also, going, to shrink, i, did, see, that you, know, now, ethereum, has, so, much potential, to start, competing, in, the, mimetic, game, of being, money, that you, know, flipping, is, no, longer, off, the table, you, know, i, personally, still prefer, the, predictable, monetary, policy like, that's how, i, think, that, uh, we, should, that's most powerful, uh, principle, to, stick, by, if, you

want, to, create uh, sound, money, but, i, do, think, that ethereum, has, been, fundamentally undervalued, because it, has, these, other, arguments, that, also resonate, very, well so, i, did, build, out, a, big, ethereum stack, and, now, i'm, outperforming, bitcoin because, of, that so, uh, thank, that's, thanks, to, the, stock to, flow, bitcoiners, that, made, stock, to flow, such, a big, part, of, what, cryptocurrency, is, that i'm, now, and, now, i, can, bank, on, the, meme of uh, deflationary, supply, in, in, ethereum because, of, that, so, i, guess, in, that that's, the, silver, lining, of, being tortured, by, these stop, to, flow, obsessionists, and eric, do, you, think, that, ethereum, being

sound, money ethereum, is, ether, is, disqualified, from being, sound, money or, do, you, think, that, it, could, become sound, money, um via, like, different, routes, other, than just, a, completely, hard, cap monetary, policy, is, this, something, that ethereum, ether, and, ethereum, can, find over, time, uh, and, then, also, uh do, you, think, that, if, there, is, a, flipping that it, is, uh, pre, the, prerequisite, is, of, that you, know, if, the, ether being, quote, unquote, sound, money, in, the eyes, of you, know, the, people, that, value, it, or, can it, or, can, it, flip, in, bitcoin via, other, um, you, know, just, other, merits well, i, think, that, ether, can, become, a money

uh, i, don't, think, that, uh ether, can, become, sound, money, in, the sense, that, bitcoin can, become, sound, money, it, become, it, can become, a, kind, of, money that, people, may, use, and, they, might, even use, it if, this, edge, case, of, the, flipping, does happen and, uh, ethereum, wins, over, bitcoin, and people, start, to, use, it as, money, it's, going, to, be, much, much sounder, money, than, any type, of, fiat, money, that, we, have, because uh, even, though, that, yes, the, monetary policy, can, be, changed it's, still, going, to, be, uh, it's, like bitcoiners, like, to, say

well, bitcoin, ethereum, is, not, no different, than you, know, just, the, central, bank, uh deciding, to, buy, uh, treasury, bonds, or changing, interest, rates and, then, printing, money, but, i, do, think it's, different, i, mean, it's, it, is after, all, the, centralized, protocol, and if, you're, if, you're involved, a, little, bit, in, ethereum governance you, know, that, uh, if, the, earth, at, least has, the, potential to, segment, its strategy, around, the, monetary, policy, much more than, what, you, could, expect, from, a, nation state, so, i, do, think, that, ethereum, can, be much sounder, money, than, fiat, currency, can, be but, i, don't, think, that, the, theorem

necessarily, should, strive, to, ever, become uh, i, mean, ethereum, can, become, a, sound mind, in, the, sense, that, this, the, supply is, very, constrained, right we, can, reach, that, phase, where it's, actually, a, negative, emission, rate uh, year, over, year, uh, but, that's, not you, know, my, definition, of, sound, money, my definition, of, sound, money, also, includes the, this, predictability and, it's, never, gonna, get, as, good, of, a brand, in, that, category, as, bitcoin, has because bitcoin, never, changed, its, monetary policy and, bitcoin, also, uh has, this, immaculate, conception, and leader, leaderless launch, and, brand, uh, around, it, that ethereum, can, never, uh, compete, with

but, that, doesn't, mean, that, you, know, it doesn't, mean, that uh, it, still, can't, but, it, can't, win ultimately, so, i, do, think, that, the flipping, can, happen, a, theory, can, be relatively, sound, money, but, uh, it's, never gonna it's, never, gonna, get, as, far uh, if, if, bitcoin, succeeds, a, sound, money it's, gonna, be, a, sounder, form, of, money than ethereum, can, achieve, in in, its, best, case, scenario, if, that, makes sense so, eric, we've, um, given, bitcoiners, a, hard time on, this, episode, i, think, it's, time, to give, ethereans, a, hard, time, too what's, something, you, think, ethereans, get

wrong oh, my, god, well it, was, too, much, is, your, brain, just spilling, over, with all, of, these, things, i, mean, uh you, know, i, don't, i, don't, want, to point, fingers, at, specific, people, in specific, projects, but i, think, that, there, is, like, the, i, think that, like, overall the, entire, ethereum, uh, project, is, an entire, mess right, now, and, uh, some, can think, that, it's, it's, a, it's, a, beautiful innovative, mess, but, i, actually, do, think that governance, wise, it's, uh, kind, of, a a, cluster, [ __ ], it's, not, the, best, uh

governed, uh, system, that that, you, have, out, there, uh, i, do, think that uh, uh, the, ethereums, themselves, like, the ethereum, people they, don't, uh, they, many, times, they, don't understand, the, types, of, uh like, if, you, take, a, defy, application, for instance, and, then, they, start, to then, they, start, to, talk, about, the qualities, of, this, defy, application and, what, they're, describing, like, if, you talk, about, the, decentralization, and, the trustlessness properties, of, this, application, compared to, what, the, factual, reality, is then, uh, ethereums, are, very, easily, misled into, thinking, that, the, product, is, much better, than, it

is, and, they, underestimate, so, many, of, the risks, that, they, are, creating, in, the, file [Music] that, that, you, know, i'm, seeing, these i'm, constantly, seeing, these, systemic risks, being built, up, inside, the, ethereum, system, and i, don't, think, that, the, stewards, of, the like, the, ethereum thought, leaders, and, the, builders, of ethereum, i, mean, i, i, i, see so, many, uh, things, coming, out, of ethereum's, mouths, that, make, me, uh shiver, on, on, a, daily, basis, like, like, if we, just, take an, example, like, do, you, remember, when, we had, this, full, uh supply, gate, scandal, uh, in, when, we, tried

to, get just, somebody, to, respond, to, what, the supply, of, ether, was like, how, many, units, and, for, for listeners, there, was, sort, of, a narrative, among, bitcoiners, it's, just like, hey you, can't, prove, what, the, supply, of, eth is, ethereums tell, us, what, the, supply, of, eth, is, and, a number, of, of, prominent, bitcoiners, you know, pushed, this, out, and, kind, of challenged, the, ethereum, community to, to, say, what, the, supply, of, uh, ether was, that's, what, you're, referring, to yeah, and, then, vitalik, said, look, at either, scan and, that, was, i, mean, i, i, cannot understand, like did, you, just, miss, uh, eight or, ten, years, of, crypto, economic, history

like, did, you, just, miss, the, entire purpose, of, what, we're, trying, to, achieve here, we're, trying, to, build, systems that, can, be, independently, verified by, everyone, uh, then, you, cannot if, you, if, you're, creating, this, uh, you know, acceptance, that looking, at, sources, like, infuria, looking at, sources, like, either, scan if, that, is, the, basis, that, you, you, your your, your that's, how, you're, educating, people, in your, in, your, system, you're, gonna end, up, i'm, thinking, you, know, what, i'm most, worried, about in, ethereum, is, that, you're, constantly compromising on, decentralized, but, i, mean, and, i, do, i got

first, first, of, all, i, gotta, give, ethereum kudos, that, compared, to uh, solana, and avalanche, and, mine, and, smart, chain and, all, these, other, ethereum, killers then, ethereum, has, stayed, true to, the, decentralization philosophy, much, more, than, those, other quantities, that, is, why ethereum, has difficulties, scaling, and, then, moving fast, and and, you, know, they, are, you, know, ethereums are, actually, trying a, little, bit, to, have, a, decentralized system uh, whereas, many, of, you, know, the, dfinity

in, these, products, they don't, care, and, heather, hashgraph, they don't, care, about, it, at, all ethereum, they, you, do, care, you, don't, care about, it, so, so, i, gotta, give, computers for, that, first, of, all but, uh, when, you, when when, we're, talking, about, you, know sinking, the, an, ethereum, node, for instance we're, all, we're, always, moving, uh, the gold, posts, so, first it, was, let's, sink, the, entire, ethereum chain, then, you, know, let's, just, look, at the, uh the, state, route, of, ethereum, and, let's just, sync, from, that, and, then, we, can then, we, can, use, what's, called, fast, sync so, we, just so, we, just, look, at, the, we, just, look, at the, current state, and, then, we, just, verify, the

proof, of, work, on, the, headers, uh, and, now we're, moving, to snapsync, which, syncs, even, er, like, in fast, sync, you, actually, did sync, uh, you, did, fully, sync uh, part, of, uh, from, from from, a, snapshot, you, did, sync, uh, the actual, ethereum, blockchain uh, but, in, snapsync, you're, is, thinking even, less of, the, uh, and, that's, becoming, the default, now, that, you're you're, actually, validating, less, and, less and, less, of, the ethereum, protocols, and, roots, uh, all, the time in, order, to, make, your, clients, faster, and i, think, also, that, they, determine, the terminology, and, the, language, uh

is, deteriorating, where, because, i, think it's, fine, like, i, think, it's, completely fine, if, you, want, to, snap, sync, your, node if, you, think, that, security, mechanism, is enough, for, you, by, all, means, do, it there, are, bitcoiners, that, run, their clients, with, assume, valid, flags, where they, also, skip, part, of, the validation, but, if, you're, going, to, call that, a, full, node if, you're, going, to, call, those, nodes, full nodes and, you, say, it, validates, them, what people, are, going, to, think, is, that, they are, independently invalidating, the, entire, system, then you, are, creating, these, systemic, risks, in the, ethereum, system, where uh, all, of, a, sudden, we, change, the terminology, so, much, and, we change, the, default, settings, of everything, so, much, that

we, can, actually, have, the, entire, system collapse by, uh, very, few, nodes actually, collapsing, like, if, you, take matic, for, instance, like, uh, i, did, tweet about, matic uh, pretty, recently, and, i, did, say, that, i am, uh just, learning, about, the, system, because, i haven't, been, nordmatic, for, a, long, time because, i, consider, it, to, be, a uh, just, a, proof, of, stake, sidechain, and i'm, much, more, interested, in, the, roll-up things uh, but, but, uh, from, my, understanding, a matic node, uh, it, re, it, gets, its uh, the, the, the, keys, the, the, validators in, in, matic they, are, chosen, in, an, ethereum, uh, smart

contract on, the, main, net, that's, where, those, keys are, set, but the, full, notes, in, mavic, they, don't, sync the, ethereum, chain, so, how, do, they, know when, they're, looking, at, that, contract how, do, they, know, that, what, is, inside that ethereum, mainnet, smart, contract, is actually valid, if, the, matic, nodes, don't, actually sync, the, clearing, chain so, it's, these, types, of, things, that, i, see where you're, having, applications, that, are, just reading information, from, completely, centralized sources and, you're, creating, uh, not, at, all in, many, cases, decentralized, uh, systems uh, i, do, i, i, do, have, to, say, though, that, i

have, changed, my uh, my, my, um, i, used, to, be uh, so, anal, about, the, centralization, when it, came, to, ethereum, that, i that, i, didn't, think, that that, i, thought, everything, was, going, to fail, but, i, have, later changed, my, thinking, now, to valuing, much, more, than, just, the permissionless quality, like, what, you, really, need, to have, in, order, to, create, this innovative, environment, is, just, that people, can, build, things, permissionless that, they, can, use, it, without, there, being any, guardians, so it's, permission, it's, permissionless, to build, that's, the, most, important, quality and, i, don't, know, if, the, centralization, i mean, the, centralization

decentralization, saves, you, from, a, few perhaps, not, very, likely, risks that, may, not, happen, or, regulatory, clamp downs, that, may, not, happen but, the, the, the, the, the, way, that, the, d5 evolution, and, and, the, revolution, is going, to, happen uh, mainly, uh, comes, from, the permissionlessness quality, and, the, composability, qualities uh more, so, i'm, i'm, not, i'm, not, that concerned, about, that, ethereum, is, just semi, decentralized uh, these, days [Music] are, did, that, answer, your, question, it does, yeah, and, we

absolutely, don't, have, uh, time, to, go, into all, of, those, items, i, will, know, on, the supply, issue, the, ethereum, community eventually, provided, a, much, better response than, what, you, said, was, vitalik's, initial response, with, some, code, that, sort, of validated the, ether, supply, but, what's, super interesting, eric, is, i, think among, honest, bitcoiners, that, we, see, who are, drawn, towards, the, thesis, of decentralization we, hear, kind, of, a, common, sentiment, of like, the, thing, i, worry, about, ethereum is, an, erosion, of, the, values, of decentralization and, it, can, happen, to, a, community, quickly and, i, think that's, really, what, your, expressing in, your, comments, here, what, one, other axis, of, decentralization, that, i, think, um

the, bankless, program, emphasizes, to, you is, like the, the, access, of, having, a, banking, layer that, is, custodial right, so, that, i, feel, like, is, an, erosion of the, bitcoiner, uh, value, systems, if, you're using, instead, of you, know, a, a, trading, system, like, like uniswap, which, is, relatively decentralized you, are, doing, your, trading, on, coinbase or, or, binance when, you, are, using, block, fi, instead, of ave, right, so, that, is, another, access, that i, feel, like, the, bitcoin, community doesn't, look, at, enough, the decentralization, of, not, just, their monetary, system but, the, banking, layer, on, top, and, eric, we probably, don't, have, time, to, get, into, all of, that, because, we've, got, to, uh

come, to, a, close, is, there, anything, you want, to, say, though, quickly, no, i, want, to say, that, i, think, that, you're, correct and, i, think, i, was, on, a, podcast, with stephan, lavera, and, revert, timer, talking about, okay, so, what, if, lightning, doesn't work, out they, said, well, we're, probably, going, to use, you, know, custodial, solutions, for transferring, bitcoin, and, i, do, think, that yes, because, you, can, do, so, much, more, with ethereum, we're, going, to, be, able, to decentralize, more, things inside, the, more, parts, of, finance, is going, to, be, decentralized in, ethereum, um, so, i, do, very, much resonate, with what, you, just, said, right, now, and, i, do think, that, it, is, true, that bitcoiners, do, underplay, that, part, of this, the, conversation uh, so, yeah, i, i, i, agree, with, you on, that, show, definitely, yeah

eric, on, the, bank, list, podcast, we, like, to give, out, this, line about, uh, just, how, we, are, all, like, going west, we, are, all exploring, the, frontier, you, don't, have, to do, it alone, you, can, join, a, community, you, can join, a, club but, uh, i, i, see, you, as, venturing, off, in the, frontier, very, much on, your, own, as, like, this, this, lone, wolf person, who very, clearly, thinks, for, himself, uh, but has, you, know, chosen, to, specifically, not be tribal, and, really, just, stick, to, your, own guns, and, stick, to, your, own, values, and and, thought, processes, uh, and, and, you, and the, other characteristics, i, would, describe, to, you is, that, you, kind, of, default, to skepticism uh, and, you, generally, proceed, with caution, which

i, think, are, very, valuable characteristics, to, have, and, perhaps, why you, have, been, in, the, crypto, industry, for so, long, and, not gotten, washed, out, as, so, many, people, do so, can, you, kind, of, reflect, on on, these, qualities, uh, maybe, the, ones, i named, and, maybe, the, ones, i, didn't, name that, you, think, have, really been, helpful, for, you, to, navigate, this industry, for such, a, long, period, of, time, and, then, also what, do, you, have, any, other, advice, for you, know, first, cyclers, or, crypto, novices who, are, just, getting, into, this, world, of crypto, and think, that, perhaps, like, cardano, or ripple, or, the, future yeah, definitely, uh, you, know, i, um it's, pretty, crazy, but, i, did, find, a unique what, i, found, in, my, opinion, was, a, unique

niche, in, the, cryptocurrency space, was, to, just, stick to, the, truth, like, just, stick, to, the like, what, is, the, actual, nature, and reality, of, the, situation and, speak, your, mind, without, bias so, i, try, to, be, as, as, unbiased, as possible and, surprisingly, there's, almost, nobody else, that, is, trying, to, fill, that, niche of, being, as unbiased, as, possible, you, know, most people, they, have, their, project, they want, to, make, the, best, out, of, that project, and, and, i, don't, know if, there, are, any, other, unbiasedness maximizers

uh, out, there, uh, i, know, that, there, are some like, there, i, like, i, think, that, probably uh hasu, a, friend, of, mine, that he, also, i, feel, like, he, sticks, to, that principle, of, just not, caring, about, bias, and, just, caring about, the, reality, so, so, yeah, that's that's, why, what, i, have, to, add, on, that and, you, also, asked, me, about um, uh, you, also, asked, me, about, uh if, i, have, any, first, cycle recommendations to, people, uh, when, we, started, to, talk, in this, podcast, we, talked, about, how, i, came into, this, space, as, this uh, uh, digital, biologists that, but, it's, actually, not, entirely

correct, i actually, came, into, this, space, as, someone that, wanted, to, learn how, to, become, a, financial, trader, so, from it, was, only, a, few, years, down, the, road when, i, really, understood, the, components of, the, blockchain, that, i, understood, that it, was a, primitive, life, form but, i, spent, i, spent, two, years, or, three years, trying, to, learn, how, to, trade, and and, for, many, of, those, years, i, was, using very, very, stupid, primitive, technical analysis i, was, looking, at, the, same, dumb indicators, that, you, see, all, of, these technical, ta advisors, use, i, was, following, the, macd rsi, rsi, indicators, and, trading, based, on that

and, it, didn't, it, took, me, until, i, learned how, to, program, and, back, test, my, own strategies, to, understand, that, i, was doing, complete, nonsense, things, and, then i, started, to, question, the, whole field, of, technical, analysis, and especially, the, bitcoiner, technical analysis that, i, found, out, that, it, was, basically just, a, big, scam and, if, i, could, give, anybody, some, advice uh don't, go, down, the, technical, analysis route, you, cannot, they, don't, work, they're not, gonna, sell, you a, course, that's, gonna, make, you, infinite money, for, 50, dollars, a month try, to, get, involved, in, communities, like try, you, can, you, can, become uh, actually, very, rich, in, the cryptocurrency, space, by, just

learning, how, these, systems, work producing, value, and, becoming members, of, princeton's, thousand, ethereum and uh, i, mean, these, that, like, i, think, you have, put, it in, a, pretty, nice, way, that, like, we, have dows in, ethereum, that, are, looking, for, workers and, if, you, can, provide, work, to, those dows you, you, can, get, crypto, coins, then, you can, use, those crypto, coins, to, invest, in, other, systems that, you, understand, and, then, you, can build, wealth, for, yourself that, is, how, you, become, profitable, in this, industry if, you're, starting, with, no, capital, today uh, versus, them you, know, trying, to, buy, a, fifty, dollar course, that's, that's, pretty, much my, my, advice, there, you, go, bankless nation

that, advice, from, eric, while, of, course none, of, this, was, financial, access but, eric, has, been, in, crypto, since, 2012 he, survived, up, to, this, point by, holding, views, on, decentralization and, thinking, about, the, long, term, of, the space, the, long-term, trajectory, eric, it's been, a, pleasure to, have, you, on, bankless, you, know, what man, i, feel, like, we're, much, more, aligned than, i, thought, we, were, at, the, start, of this podcast, and, it's, always, good, to, see, a kindred, spirit, in, the, space who's, here, for, some, of the, same, reasons we, are, on, the, bankless, podcast, so, thanks for, joining, us, man it, was, a, pleasure, thanks, for, having, me on, action, items of, course, you, have, to, follow, eric, wahl at, ercwl

on, twitter, got, some, fire, thoughts, coming at, you, we, will, also, include some, of, the, articles, we've, referenced, in the, show, notes, one that, david, mentioned, proof, of, stake, is wasteful, on, cows, volcanoes, and, staking if, that, doesn't, tweak, your, interest prove, your, sake, is, less, wasteful it's, less, wasteful, thanks, very, important point, a, very, important, point disregard, what, i, just, said, anyway, the show, notes, are, available for, you, to, read, those, articles, are referenced, of, course, guys risks, and, disclaimers, bitcoin, is, risky eth is, risky, defy, is, risky, you, could, lose what, you, put, in but, we, are, headed, west, this, is, the frontier, it's, not, for, everyone, but, we're glad, you're, with, us, on, the, bankless journey, thanks, a, lot hey, we, hope, you, enjoyed, the, video, if, you

did, head over, to, bankless, hq, right, now, to, develop your, crypto, investing, skills and, learn, how, to, free, yourself, from banks, and, gain, your, financial independence we, recommend, joining, our, daily newsletter, podcast, and, community, as, a bankless, premium, subscriber, to, get, the most, out, of, your, bankless, experience you'll, get, access, to, our, market, analysis our, alpha, leaks and, exclusive, content, and, even, the bankless, token, for, airdrops raffles, and, unlocks, if, you're, interested in, crypto, the, bankless, community, is where, you, want, to, be click, the, link, in, the, description, to become, a, bankless, premium, subscriber today also, don't, forget, to, subscribe, to, the channel, for, in-depth, interviews, with industry, leaders ask, me, anythings, and, weekly, rollups where, we, summarize, the, week, in, crypto

and, other, fantastic, content thanks, everyone, for, watching, and, being on, the, journey, as, we, build, out, the bankless, nation