The 52 Month DeFi Bear Market Is Over

Transcript

and Zcash. Yep. And a few others. And this is the first time. I mean, I've been around since 2012, so this is what 14 years now I've been watching these graphs. And I've never seen this before. Just like the streets of Manhattan. I'm going to keep this quick. Over 70% of our viewers are not [music] subscribers. Yes, you. Every week, we interview some of the best entrepreneurs and [music] investors in the financial industry. The easiest way to support our channel is to hit the [music] like and smash the subscribe button. Now, sit back, relax, and enjoy today's show. >> [music] >> We're here at AI Supercycle episode number 50. Uh powered by our friends at Near. Enough said. In the past, we have to said say what they are, but if you don't know about Near now, then we can't help you. We got Eric Connor here, the

co-author of EIP559, OG Ethereum developer, and investor, just general investor in the space, been very, very dialed in uh in the market. So, Eric, great to have you. >> Hey guys, thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm excited for this. >> Yeah, first time. First time. And uh what a run from some of these AI names. I mean you look across the market and you look at Near and Venice kind of leading. Then you look across at this Pearl token that I'm not sure you looked into proof of verifiable work as this kind of next bitcoin for AI almost taking out Bit Tensor and the uh their kind of role. Interesting dynamic there.

Uh you know you've got the the likes of um you know RCM doing well. You've got Zama doing well in the privacy side with AI as well. So, a lot happening here. Um, and Eric, I know you've been quite early to a couple of these names. Maybe just talk talk through your AI investing AI crypto crossover investing strategy here. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, I kind of have a funny one I guess I'll go into, but yeah, I mean, crypto is always going to follow like the mainstream narratives, right? And I think the best thing for crypto is when it can um improve a mainstream narrative like AI. And I think some of these projects can prove like you can break out of the traditional AI space and blockchain and crypto can add some value. Um, I think Venice VBB is kind of the obviously one

there. I actually, funny enough, this was back like when it launched. It's at least a year and a half, maybe two years ago. I know I lose track of time fast in that space, but I literally saw BBB launch and bought it sub a dollar. I believe like Eric tweeted the contract or something, but even then, I was watching like new launches on chain because not a lot was really happening. Um, I bought it and then like Coinbase listed that same day. Um, the bad news of this story though is I fumbled it like day two and then watched it run up like 900% since then. But yeah, I literally I was one of like the first like besides sniper bots, I had to be one of the first buyers of EBV ever [laughter] and then I fumbled. Well, what's funny is I sold it like they had

a Coinbase pump and it was just up a lot in a day. I'm like I I didn't know much about it. There wasn't much info and then it literally did nothing for like a year and then just took off again. So, um, yeah, that's that's a classic fumble. Like I kind of like those fumble things that FOMO does, but uh you know I don't I don't have one for just my base wallet, but I probably don't want to look at that one. >> We have one too, man. We had Eric on the show on this show in person at Nearcon back in February. I mean I think VVV was like seven or eight bucks. >> No, two dollar. >> Dollar 80 in Denver. Eat Denver dollar 80.

>> Yeah, that's part of the game, right? I try not to sleep. >> Like you don't Exactly. Like you like All right, you messed up. it's higher, you just buy in with more size if you want to, you know, revenge trade if you're still really bullish, if the thesis hasn't changed. Yeah. >> Um, but, you know, fortunately for the rest of your portfolio from what we've seen both publicly on FOMO with Boner and some of these others and then also just, you know, through your tweets, you [snorts] know, you're kind of the the owner of this own both and chill thesis around the per assets. How did you come to that? Why was this such an obvious play for you where it's like, "Hey, everyone's going to be upset at lighter or hyperlquid. There's going to be this kind of Salana versus ETH camp forming.

Just own both and relax. Like you don't need to take a side, take a polarizing view of this market. We're still early. What's your thesis? How did you come to this? Um, and how did you nail that?" >> Yeah, I think this is because of a lesson I learned last cycle. So, I'm sure a lot of people listening know originally I I've been in ETH Maxi for years, kind of recovering ETH Maxi over the last year now. Um, but you know, I was in Ethereum early and I held it for years and for a while I just thought that was the only token I ever wanted to own. And because of that, I kind of missed the whole Salana cycle when you know, ETH didn't do much when Salana was pumping. I, you know, I saw Salana very early. I could have easily rotated. I

could have played the meme game a little bit and I was just like a little stubborn there. Um, I kind of had a aha moment to myself year and a half, two years ago. Finally sold some of my ETH bag, bought some hype. Um, just saw the pers thing coming. I mean, 24/7 stock trading, all this is so pitchable to normies as well and Wall Street. It's just it's just obvious to me. Um, and in doing that, you know, I thought I'm never going to tie myself to just one coin again. So even though I was like buying up hype and you know still had a little bit of ETH at the time but um if I saw something I didn't want to just become a maxi of that coin anymore because like there's so much opportunity out there and it's kind of silly to do.

Um so yeah then I ran across lighter who I also think you know is already is but going to be a huge player in the per space as well. Um and just kind of sizing the both and like then you don't have to worry like I was always stressing out about Salana pumping and ETH not just because I had ETH. Like I don't want to relive [clears throat] that story again. So why not own both? I think there's plenty of there's plenty of pie to be had right in the per space. Um there's going to be multiple winners. Um, you know, lighter kind of has this like in in the US and, you know, hype obviously is a much larger cap, more open interest, and they're kind of got like, you know, the more worldwide presence right now, but, you know, with regulations happening, the CFTC coming

out with these roundts and advisory committees, like there's there's going to be different winners, right? Um, and why just tie yourself to one coin? And especially like back in the day with ETH and Bitcoin, I kind of got like the maxi narratives because they each kind of had their like but when it comes to like per coins, I don't see why you would tie yourself to one. >> Yeah, cuz they're not trying to be like money like you know, they're not trying to be, you know, this is this is the standard, but man, you're speaking to two recovering ETH maxis, too. I mean, I mean, I don't know the extent. Obviously, we weren't, you know, in the ICO with with you, you know, Wales, but we were hanging out in the ETH forms and we were buying ETH in 2017 in the first bull and then, you know, we saw Bank

list and the rise of DeFi in the early late 2019 cycle in early 20 and ETH kind of made our investing career like it made our it made our first like big big win from, you know, call it, you know, 50 to 200 bucks all the way up to 5K and happened relatively quickly. And it took me a while, like it took me a while to be like, Rob, like ETH is not one of my core holdings anymore. I still own it, but I look at my hype position. I look at some Zcash. I look at some other positions that I have, and I find it in the top 10 of what I'm holding, but certainly not in the top three. And and and I just every time it pumps, I just kick myself because I'm like, ah, this is so obvious. It's going to 10K. But

I'm like, I just got to go back, look at the Zcash ETH chart, look at the hype ETH chart. And then Lighter kind of formed this like saving grace for me. And I think you agree with this, which is like if anything is the perfect representation of what ETH is trying to allow for in the creation of this world. It is lighter. It is a ZKI high performance trading venue with a cracked Olympiad team that is only possible on Ethereum. It has better security properties than Hyperlid. It's the best. It's the most secured per stacks in the market just b if you know ZK if you know Ethereum settlement if you understand kind of the nuts and bolts and so that kind of saved me Eric where it's like all right fine I'll put my ETH chips into the lighter basket and I'll still

be bullish but yeah stuff has changed man like the whole market has just changed. >> Yeah. No I mean I completely agree with you and that's kind of how I felt about my lighter investment as well. I mean like at heart my like I hope long-term blockchain wise like Ethereum's core values win and I think you know this is in my opinion I mean I don't know what he thinks but to me this is like what I saw as Vital's vision of layer 2 and like ZK specific apps right so like lighter you wouldn't really know you're on Ethereum like it trades extremely fast the user experience is great but you get Ethereum security guarantees underneath right um and like the vibe of the team is pretty Ethereum aligned and you know I I that makes it more comfy to me as an investment coming as a you know

a decade long recover from ETH maxi but yeah I mean also like I'll say like people have to just look at their portfolios differently too right obviously at a larger market cap things like Bitcoin and ETH it's just harder for them to move but also on down swings they're probably going to hold up long term like a little bit better right um and like a lot of people I mean taxes are a big thing too right I mean if you get a big bag of something you sell it if you live in the US I mean depending on what state you're living in you be selling having to pay 30 to 50% of that in taxes like especially if you're on short-term gains and stuff. So like there's a lot of decisions to be made um in portfolio management, right? And like for me pulling that tax bandit off was

the biggest one probably because you're thinking I'm going to lose x amount of this reinvest it. If I reinvest it doesn't do it's got to outperform by you know whatever an extra 40% just to make it back. So, um, but yeah, there's just so much opportunity out there. And if you're like plugged in 24/7 on, on Twitter and now these social trading apps and all podcasts and streaming, um, you should have a lot of alpha, I think, to to pick up, you know, cheaper coins as well. So, yeah, still always kind of anchor your your portfolio, I guess, with, you know, stronger coins and larger cap coins. But, um, yeah, I don't think I think the per train is just getting started, to be honest. I mean, I think >> now that clarity failed, we, you know, the the um SEC and CFTC in the US are

coming out >> just saying they're going to make their own rules, which they were very clear about, you know, at the round table a month ago as well. But I mean, we haven't even seen um a license given out yet and these things are doing well. So, when a license comes out and volume really picks up and if US, you know, um customers able to start using them legally and stuff, then the open interest is just going to explode on all these platforms. Yeah, I mean that's what Hib was saying just before you had came on and I think we're we're aligned and also positioned. Um I'd like to talk about Robin Hood. It's so funny where like ETH is not the core holding.

>> Yeah. Right. >> Other stuff's going to outperform, but it's also like the best environment Ethereum has ever been in in terms of products and like output. And so I know it's going to rip still. I still want to be on that train. Um but it it it's just funny that juxosition there. Uh Rob, were you gonna add there on perert? >> Yeah, I think Ethan is, you know, there there's a few different things. One of them is on timing. The other one is on, you know, the way that these things break down. And we've been talking about this barbell thesis for a long time, which has been hard money on one side, predominantly Zcash and Bitcoin. And then on the other side, it's been this revenue meta, this like, you know, Hyperlid, Lighter, Pump Fund was in there, and there's a, you know, a few

others that are generating some revenue and passing it back to their token now. But it feels like we're getting a little bit like that is becoming a little crowded and I think that was kind of the vibe over the summer right where you know market was generally pretty apathetic but then these things started to kind of show some light and then we ended up you know kind of evolving into this current market regime where you know for some reason Litecoin today is catching a ton of attention. So, it it feels like we're getting a little bit deeper. Now, if you think back, you know, Andy and I were talking about this as like this transition from bare to like pre-bull, like this apathetic market condition into this like very sectordriven bull market. Some of these things are starting to pop off and show

some momentum. Now, it feels like we're transitioning from pre-bull to actual bull, in which case, you know, again, I try to think like this time isn't different. And so typically the way these things go is like, you know, the major market caps, you know, the bitcoins and the ETHs and those things kind of do most of the heavy lifting early on and create this wealth effect that ends up spilling over into altcoins. And so I'm curious if you kind of see that, you know, we had these po these things that popped off, hyperlid and Zcash and Near, they were kind of the winners of the pre-bull, but now that we enter like the real bull market, we're going to kind of transition back to majors and then run the same sort of playbook where that major wealth effect

spills over into the rest of the market. >> What do you I mean just general take a tiny bit more color there. you know, Secrets of Crypto, Eric, you remember him from the OG uh uh you know, he had that like genie, that blue genie profile pick, and he was always like Bitcoin first, then ETH, then alts, then like shitcoins. And Kobe's infamous like pyramid of portfolio construction was like Bitcoin and ETH, 70%, 20%, you know, midcaps, 10% or 5% low caps, 5% garbage, right? And so, but that's changed a bit in that, you know, Bitcoin didn't lead this whole cycle and ETH hasn't led, but Robbie kind of laid out the winners. Just curious. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um, I definitely agree that we're transitioning from a pre-bull to the start of a full-on bowl. I actually have like a thesis that we never even had a bull market two, three years ago. Like, Bitcoin went to 120. Salana did pretty well, but I think that was just money slloshing around. I mean, ETH ETH ran quickly up to like 4,900 and dumped again. Like, to me, that was never really a bull market. I I think this is the start of it. But yeah, what's been really interesting is the perp coins and things like Zcash and others have been leading. Usually it was the majors leading first. We saw the majors try to catch up the other day and then everything else just cools off. I'm always kind of scared when like ETH tries to take the lead these days cuz [laughter] it'll go like on a crazy run and then,

you know, dump 10% and the rest of the market nukes, you know, a little bit more. But so far, we're holding up pretty well here. I I think the most interesting thing about this is I do think this theory has changed. I we've seen a lot of decoupling to Bitcoin. So like back in the day everything was tied directly to Bitcoin. I mean you would see like one coin maybe kind of run um but these per coins are not tied to Bitcoin at all. >> And Zcash. Yep. And a few others. And this is the first time. I mean I've been around since 2012. So this is 14 years now I've been watching these graphs and I've never seen this before. Um it's almost like they don't even care about Bitcoin. Now granted, if Bitcoin nuked like 50k tomorrow, of course the market's going to come down with it. But

I'm not even convinced that perpoins wouldn't just recover and you know do well. And I think this is happening because of the regulatory landscape. So finally we have some like bullish regulations coming out in the US. Um previously everything was just kind of tied to the Bitcoin news cycle and now we're like oh we could actually have some like major used crypto apps that um you know have laws and regulations written around them. The founders aren't scared to have US customers. Um, and I think that's why we're seeing that. But yeah, I think we're going to I think the the smaller caps are going to pump, cool off, majors are going to pump cool off.

And it's just this constant kind of cycling of of money. But um I think we're seeing finally an inflow of new capital, which I don't think we saw in in that cycle a couple years ago. >> Yeah, man. I was uh drastically I was extremely impressed. This is going to sound kind of weird. extremely impressed by my ability to not take a deep bare market draw down which has allowed us to size in win size into the winners which we got lucky but also you know we're skilled and had some risk but I was extremely disappointed in my performance last bull extremely disappointed and extremely let down and I barely made a portfolio all-time high against 2021 and I quickly was under it and I was like are you effing kidding me I was promised

my third cycle I was going to make it and here we are and we didn't make it and So I I do align with that and and I feel like uh you know you know not to get too bowled up but this does feel a bit more secular. And on the note of just you know tearing down ETH in its most performance-based best era it's ever been. Kevin Olirri we're at this avalanche conference. He comes in and he's like I thought it was going to be ETH that was going to win everything in the smart contract. You know obviously he's been paid to be there at this Avalanche event and he's like it's not ETH. It's going to be somebody else.

Whoever, and this is going to be, Eric, you're going to love this. He was like, "Whoever wins the trading and the exchanges is going to win so big. Those tokens are going to moon so hard." And I was at an Avalanche conference, so I couldn't say it wasn't going to be Avalanche because it may be Avalanche. But I'm sitting there thinking to myself, and I'm like, "This this mother effer is shilling hyperlquid and [laughter] lighter right to the biggest hype and lighter bowls that he even knows." And also near intense. He's also shilling near and near intense. He's also showing some, you know, partially Salana and their spot, you know, trading growth. And what he's really also showing is Robin Hood chain. And it's just like, how is this guy so tapped in but doesn't even know what he's shilling? But like, we know. It was just

a hilarious moment. What do you think of that take? >> Yeah, I know. It's interesting. It like I wonder how many people like him and others even realize like Robin Hood is an Ethereum layer too, right? And like I the reason I think Ethereum will still look ETH the assets always kind of had its battles and you know I I was one of the first that kind of started ETH's money and was you know battling that with Bitcoin maxis back in the day. So ETH the assets always had its issues. I think ETH's going to be fine. I mean I I was just on bank recently. Everyone gives me crap because like four years ago I jinxed ETH and said it was going to top out that like $2,500 and it's constantly at $2,500. So I up my target to 20K for ETH. So, I don't want too

many ETH maxis in my replies after this saying I'm dogging on ETH cuz I'm not. I think Ethereum the technology for sure and likely then ETH the asset will still win the technology battle. I mean, Robin Hood's building on Ethereum layer 2 and like why? It's because of composability and like Robin Hood gets this right. They they come on they announced they're doing Robin Hood chain. They instantly can integrate with their partners like Lighter UniS swap others. I mean unis swap is just so easy for them to plug into. They're using, you know, lighter for pers and, you know, some of these meme stocks as well. It's just so easy to plug and play on the Ethereum chain.

And I I think people don't realize how hard it is to get liquidity, too. So, like one of the most interesting things about meme stocks is it's like instantly bootstrap liquidity for onchain stocks for Robin Hood. Um, and I don't know if this was like they expected this to happen. I don't know how much they're kind of like playing wizard behind the scenes with this stuff, but um all of a sudden there's millions and millions of dollars in liquidity on Robin Hood chain for their tokenized stocks because they route through these meme stock pools. Um that's hard to do. Like other chains are not going to be able to spin up and say, "Yeah, we're doing tokenized stocks. We have no composability with Ethereum and we're just going to create hundreds of millions of dollars in liquidity for our tokenized stock." It's that's just it's

almost impossible at this point. I you know, Vlad and Robin Hood get this. It's first mover. I think they're not too scared to move first and break things. Um there's some weirdness going around with like in kind redemption of stocks they claims coming like how these are held in trust. There needs to be a little bit more clarity around here though that area which I they seem to get. Um but yeah at the end of the day Robin Hood decided to build on Ethereum. Now we could argue for days how does that return value back to ETH and all this stuff but my theory has always been if Ethereum's popular going to do fine, right? um people just hear it and just buy it. So >> it's also just went through a bit of a a revival period there where it was the decision- making process was of the

older era. Like if you think about Dows, you think about this whole decentralized decision making that era has came and went. I do think it will come back in the same way that Zcash is kind of the antithesis to the institutionalization of Bitcoin. That's what Hib just said. this kind of like decentralization will come back as the antithesis to the centralization in a way lighter kind of serves that for hyperlquid honestly. Yeah. Um and so um you know I think that will come back but ETH went through that period of revival which I think was so crucial for its perception with the cryptonatives uh that and I I would say it's been a wildly successful revival.

But without getting too deep into ETH, I want to get into Robin Hood chain. >> Wait, hold on. I got I got I got to ask and before we get like fully deep into Robin Hood and meme stocks and board sits and FOMO and all that stuff >> and Eric's $3 million unrealized P&L, of course. >> Yeah. So, I I just want to follow up on the ETH thing because like I it feels like it doesn't fit into this barbell thesis. It's not hard. I mean, maybe you know, you invented this hard money thesis for ETH and maybe you have a word to say about that, but it's definitely not part of the revenue camp. the revenue meta, right? Especially as Robin Hood, you know, exponentially grows its revenues. It doesn't get, you know, a revenue share of that. It's get, you know, flat fees for its block space. And

so it feels like it doesn't really fit. It doesn't really have like a thesis. Yet, it also feels like the I just constantly hear people hate on it. And it makes me so bullish almost only for the fact that Tom Lee has taken so much of the supply off of the open market that once it gets going it's gonna have so much momentum and be so reflexive that it's going to I think rip face and blow like surprise a lot of people and so like does is ETH money does it need to have a thesis at all for it to go up?

>> Yeah. Like can it just exist in between this hard money barbell of like Bitcoin and we put Zcash in there whether it's earned that or not but then you put gold in there and maybe even silver right actual physical metals and then you've got hyperlquid lighter pump pawn stone on the revenue side you know all these other revenue producing businesses that are just cooking and pumping ETH kind of finds itself in the middle CMS you know came on the show last week or the week before and he was like hey everyone's in this barbell trade it feels likeensis Ethereum could go up just because it doesn't fit into this and so it's underowned.

>> Yeah, I agree. So to answer your question, I don't think it needs a thesis. I actually think price leads narrative. I don't think narrative leads price. I think people things like Zcash go up and people are like, "Oh yeah, it had a great narrative." No, I think the narrative sounds great now because it's pumping. And I I think people will see that with ETH. Like I I don't know really. I don't have a real feel on where ETH's going. Like I'm very underexposed to ETH right now. You know, people have been saying, "Oh, Eric's underexposed, so that's, you know, it's bullish. It's going to pump." Well, I've been underexposed for two years now and hasn't done anything. So, I I mean, I don't know. I could easily see ETH hate rallying to 20K. Like, why not, right?

We've seen crazier things in crypto. Um, and at that point, you know, narrative all of a sudden will be like, "Oh, E money again, right? It just it's what happens." But I think most people for now to me, if I was like buying more ETH again, it would just be on the technology play side. Like my theory is if like Robin Hood chain wins, if lighter, you know, win wins a huge part of the per space, people just see Ethereum and just naturally buy ETH. Like I don't think that many people just buying crypto in their Coinbase apps besides all of us dieards are like looking too hard into these narratives and thesis. I think they're just like, "Oh, this one's up 10% in the last month. I want to buy it or my neighbor talked about it. I," you know. So, >> but Eric, on that note, when when those

folks used to come into the space in 2017, that was Robbie and I's first big runup and big like you know, you know, you you learn a lot in the first cycle. I mean, you lose it all, right? And the second cycle we saw and what what were they buying? They were buying Bitcoin and ETH and Litecoin and Ripple. Um those were kind of like the big four, if you will. Last cycle you saw them come in and buy some Salana, some Avalanche, some Phantom, some Terral Luna, and then Dinocoins XLM uh, Hideera, blah blah blah. And then previous cycle, whether you call it or not, it was memes. It was everyone's buying memes because that's the thing.

Do you like do you think they're actually going to come in and buy this barbell? Like, is this what they're going to buy because they're smarter now? Are they going to buy dino coins again? Are they going to buy memes again? Are they going to buy your meme stocks from you and make you a trillionaire? Like, what are they going to do? like what are they going to buy? >> I mean my thesis is meme stocks right now, right? Yeah. I mean I think I by the way I think a lot of the reason people were buying ETH early on is a lot was happening on chain like we had DeFi summer. We had NFTTS like punks were going crazy like people just see that and naturally associate the underlying asset then but uh yeah I mean I think the to me where a lot of people are

going to come in soon is on Robin Hood chain and things like meme stocks things that haven't been tried before. Um, you know, we're obviously seeing a general pump in Robin Hood assets a lot due to like FOMO and social trading as well. Um, but yeah, I think meme stocks are a new meta. I think I think people are sleeping on this to be honest. Yeah, sure. Bonercoins at like 50 million market cap and AI is at like 250, but I mean there's CEOs constantly following and liking tweets here. And I think what people don't realize like Bonercoin I think has like 20,000 followers. Um they're doing at one point they did 10% of the onchain volume of the HIM stock on the on the stock exchange that day.

Um if you're if you're like the CEO or like I've been on himself podcast which is like or him house podcast which is like the investor community. They're very open to the boner community. You have like 20,000 Rob uh rabid fans all of a sudden who are only interested in the stock going up. Like no one's shorting bonercoin right now. you literally can't um you know and if HIMS goes up in the pool like that pushes boner price up and vice versa right if boner goes up it swalls up more hem shares like there there's I think I mean my theory is that every major stock is going to have one meme stock winner and one meme stock community and they're going to be used as kind of like the the gen marketing arm for that stock and we're going to see different companies

embrace it in different ways obviously um but like to me my theory was boner like the perfect not only is it the name beyond even being backed by him. It's just the perfect fit. >> You know, this feels like it started from the treasure digital asset treasuries was like the corporate way of like getting this off the ground and then you know they came in and they kind of like made it retail friendly with this meme stock pairing. >> Yeah. >> Um couple things here. I mean just across the docket just want to give a little update. US Treasury bought $4 billion of its own debt. CFTC just came in and issued updated guidance. So like what you're saying, Eric, on all of the regulatory innovation that's happening.

I'm running it through our clankers right now to get a summary because two comment letters are like 19 pages long. And then the other thing that I I wanted to ask you about because actually you you mentioned it when we kind of broke into this like uh you know Robin Hood tokenized stock conversation is inkind redemptions. They say that it's coming right after you. We have Yoshi Yokawa from Alpaca and Alpaca Securities does the custody for Robin Hood stock tokens. And so I plan I'll I'll ask him about the inkind redemptions and anything else that you want to know as far as how these things are custodied.

>> Yeah. No, that's awesome that he's coming on. Um yeah, I've been digging into it a little bit. Um from what I understand, I think they're the custodian for both Coinbase and Robin Hood. The Coinbase ones I believe give the onchain holder a little bit more rights. I don't know too much about this. I think the Robin Hood ones are some type of debt instrument and Vlad has said that voting rights in kind redemption are coming. The only really bearish take I've seen from people who I've like even non-crypto people like more stock traders and I've kind of talked to them about this is like they they instantly go to like oh are these synthetic shares? Are they even like if I wanted to redeem it could I? And I'm like well not really yet. So I'd be curious like what that road map looks

like for Robin Hood. >> Yeah. >> I think to your point it doesn't even matter cuz right now people just want exposure to the underlying asset price. >> Rob remember what Hib was saying right where it's like the beautiful thing about per right now is that you know you've got this asset class of people and demographic people they just want to get in and out of these things. They're not looking to hold him for the next 10 years. They're looking to make a make some money on Boner. Sounds ridiculous to say, but again, our lovely guest is up millions on Bonercoin. Um, or they want to, you know, they want to trade in and out of these things. And so these kind of debt issued SEC or is like issued debt notes are kind of perfect, right? It's kind of exactly what Vlad wants to do. It's exactly what he wants

to make happen. And so, you know, you've just got this perfect storm of let's get this done now. Like, let's get started and we'll figure it out as as we go. And Eric, I'm going to the Robin Hood event next week in Houston. It should be epic. I'm long Robin Hood on variational going into it, farming some points, getting long on Hood stock. And so my question is, is this is this enough that Wall Street is still behind the ball on Robin Hood and they don't understand Robin Hood chain? Is this enough to pump Hood stock? Like is this the epitome of the thesis that Robin Hood stock starts a rally that leads to other equities that are active on there which kind of you know culminates in this meme stock you

know bonanza like is that kind of what you're thinking about how big this could truly get? >> I think so. I mean I think the first mover here you know has a big advantage. They're obviously there. My my theory is everything's going to be eventually tokenized like the entire traditional finance world. How long does that take? I don't know. But we're seeing like a huge ramp up in, you know, things like Kimshares, Nvidia shares being tokenized on chain. Um, they're making a ton of revenue from the fees on their chain. I I I believe I saw something. I I could be totally misquing this. I thought I saw like 300 to 500 million annualized and that's just, you know, just today before things have really taken off. Um, I think the first >> the revenue from the chain. Sorry.

Again, no one quote me on that, please. But >> no, no, you're right. And that puts if it's if it's above the 500 mark, what that does is that puts it in the one of five business lines above 500 mil annualized, which is again I think Wall Street may not realize this yet. >> Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And like as more volumes happening, as they're making more fees, more things get tokenized. I mean, I think Yeah, I mean for Robin Hood, this has to be a huge tailwind, right? It's got to be. Um, and if they I we're not even talking yet about traditional finance players coming on chain and offering product like traditional type products onchain, right? Like we're going to see that as well. Um, but yeah, it's just the beginning. You just got to be patient with this stuff as always. Like I like

being on the ground floor of things and I I've got some kind of I don't know if you want to call it a mental illness or right, but I'm willing to diamond hand things for for years. [laughter] Go go go through many zeros. And I mean I had I had ETH at the beginning. It ran up to 25 and the Dow hack happened. dumped to like three or eight bucks, it ran up to,200, it dumped to 80. Like, you got to be willing to do that. I think one of the weird things meme trading is teaching people is to not know how to hold. I mean, people are literally like making fun of uh unrealized P&L people on FOMO who are up like $12 million because they haven't sold. I'm like, well, first of all, maybe they don't want to pay short-term gain taxes and maybe they think it's

going to go higher, right? Everything's taught us to like go in and out of stuff in a day and I think that's just a bad habit for a lot of people. And I think what you're saying is there's a bigger macro event here for this cycle because last cycle was so treacherous. It was so just I mean you wanted to get in and out of those things as quick as you can. Now it's no longer a trader market. I think it's a holders market, Eric. And that is a shift that you only learn by participating in actual crypto bull runs. You have to learn the hard way with the bearer. you know, when when Todd shift, you got to know, you got to be able to take stuff off the table. But until you've gone through like a real cycle and you've realized that your

targets are not high enough, and I know this is a very very bulling podcast and I love it, but you know, you do learn the hard way by selling too early in mega trends and you get screwed over. It's like that Newton's Newton buys a little bit, Newton's friends buy some more, Newton all allins, last leg up, he doesn't sell, and then he gets nuked on. It's like the same concept here of >> of kind of sticking in. And so I haven't sold any of my Ze. I haven't really sold much hype. Haven't sold it much lighter if any. >> I haven't sold much near, you know, just trying to ride a lot of these things. Uh even, you know, my ETH just like memes on FOMO. I get keep getting destroyed. I I just not my game. And I just know that that's not my game and I just can't. And

so and the public nature of it screws me over. I just I don't love it. So, it's hard for me on FOMO, but you know, it just takes one is what it seems like on that app. >> Eric, you know, there's been like kind of mixed feelings and mixed takes with regards to the whole stock token thing. Like, like you said, you know, him seems particularly receptive to a lot of the things that are happening in the boner community. Um, and then you know, you've got AMC and the CEO of AMC is like talking about how, you know, he didn't he didn't approve of this and you know, this is unregistered and it's going to hurt people and, you know, calling the SEC for consumer protection and then, you know, Vlad is like, what's the concern here? So, like maybe you could

just help reconcile this like, you know, why are CEOs of these public companies that have these tokenized stocks reacting so differently? like some of them see the purpose, others don't. You know, maybe you can just pick and like kind of untangle like why there's mixed feelings here. >> Yeah, I've actually been digging into this a lot because I'm like, why would the AMC co be anti- this when in theory anything being bought on Robin Hood chain is bullish for their stock price? And I I think I've deduced to AMC had some weird things with synthetic shares and like naked shorts and all this stuff. there might just be a misunderstanding. Like perhaps he doesn't think that each share is actually in custody and he thinks there's going to be synthetic shares on chain. Use those to short AMC somehow. I

don't know. Either that or he's short AMC behind the scenes. I really don't know why he wouldn't, you know, be bullish here. Um I also think we're going to see like I don't really know him, but I've just seen his tweets. I think he's an older guy. I believe like the HIMCO is a bit younger. I think there's going to be a generational gap here. um you know, as younger CEOs understand the tokenization of stocks, they're going to be more receptive to it as well, I think. >> Yeah, >> you make a really good point around synthetic shares because I was of the mind back when Bitcoin ETFs and Bitcoin treasury companies kind of at the peak sailor, you know, uh dysphoria was like there's more than 21 million Bitcoin.

Like part of the reason why we're not really see like if there was actually all these flows from institutional investors going into Bitcoin Bitcoin like we would be so much higher than we were because we didn't have all of this what felt like dilutive excess you know public shares and other companies and derivatives products diluting the Bitcoin market kind of like the synthetic Bitcoin. And so I I'm I'm curious. Do you think that is true in the Bitcoin market? And do you think that's what's happening? And I'll ask Yoshi in a little bit, but do you think that's what's happening in the in the Robin Hood tokenized stock market either?

>> Yeah, I mean it's a good question to ask him because what I understand is truly every share on chain is backed by this custodian. So I'd be curious his answer to it. Um I do think I am always mystified especially with ET ETF flows back in the day like you would see these giant flows and the price barely moved, right? So I I do think that plays a factor there. But I I think yeah, I think it comes down to just a misunderstanding. Like Robin Hood's been pretty transparent about this and Vlad slowly more over the last week. But it's probably just a general misunderstanding from most of the CEOs that have come out and been negative about it. Um because I mean I'll be the first to admit there's not a ton of information out there. I mean I did like a claw deep dive on it

and it came up with a lot of information but like what are the shareholder rights of to these debt instruments and things like that and like why is Coinbase giving their tokenized stocks? I think they only have like three tokenized stocks if I correctly. Three or four. Yeah. So, they're obviously kind of going like a slower route than Robin Hood's kind of more moving fast and hopefully not breaking things. But, um, >> but yeah, things are going to get weird. Like, here's an example I give. Like AMC, I believe, is a $2.5 billion market cap. There was, uh, there was a meme stock tear that AMC like two weeks ago, I believe, ran up to like 120 million.

We've seen like SHIB for example, a memecoin run up to 40 billion, which would be 20 times higher than AMC's market cap. What happens if one of these meme stocks outpace the market cap of the actual stock? Like what what starts happening on chain? Like when boner started pumping, there weren't even enough HIMS shares on chain. It was like a Saturday. So the HIM share price on Robin Hood ran up to like >> 10 times the actual stock and market makers had to wake up and start arbiting it down, minting more shares. I think this is where it's going to get really fun and I'm not sure many people know what's going to actually happen if that occurs. Also, >> I think the result of that is just you end up with like larger volumes happening on chain. So, you mentioned 10% I saw a tweet.

>> Yeah. Yeah. There was a tweet that was Qualcomm's a $200 billion company or or I believe that that's what the stat was. There was a there was an asset on chain that was like two $20 million market cap and it had more volume in a given trading day on that $20 million market cap than like a $200 billion company in the equities market. >> Wild. >> And so Rob, that's that's what you're saying, right? Is that volume on chain is just going to accelerate. >> I Yeah, I mean I remember saying I think it was, you know, in during this episode that like 10% of him was traded on chain one day. You know, we were just talking before. I think there was 2% of AMC traded onchain one day. And so, as memecoins go up, they pull more inventory onchain. And as long as these

aren't synthetic shares, then the inventory is finite. It either has to exist offchain or onchain. And if more of it gets pulled onchain, then there's less off-chain for uh to be traded. And I think therefore you then see like this rerating of the protocols in which these tokenized assets flow into per being the primary modality that you're going to end up trading these things. And you know we know that there was you know this kind of battle right decentralized perpetuals exchanges was going after centralized exchanges right we had like the dexto sex ratio now we end up with like the perpetuals uh venue ratio to brokerages right now we're talking about 2% or 10% during market hours next we're

going to be you know that is a runaway train I think that ratio >> decentralized venues and public brokerages is going to get flipped >> unis swap is crushing too, man. I mean, their their tokens ripping and their volumes are through the roof. >> So, listen, one more thing though on on the point of like pulling more inventory on chain and rerating the protocols that those tokenized assets flow into this CFTC guidance. I mentioned it came out like literally as we were talking and I just ran it through chatbt. The main takeaway, there's quite a bit in here, but the main takeaway is the CFTC PA staff is providing a clear path for tokenized assets and qualifying crypto to function as collateral in regulated derivatives markets.

That is huge in my opinion. That means that, you know, you're going to be a not only you going to pair these things with meme coins in an unregulated world, you're going to be able to take your tokenized HIMYM stock, your AMC stock, borrow against it, get margin against it, and then go use it for different purposes. You can go get, you know, all these yield generating use cases that we've been seeing pop up. You can then go and do those. You can use them as collateral, use them as margin. And we end up getting so many more non-skeumorphic use cases as a result of, you know, making these things programmable and productive on chain that we never could have imagined. And then the TAM of all of this is so much greater.

>> I love it. >> Yeah, that's the great unlock of composability, right? They they allowed things like this and all of a sudden you could go, you know, borrow against it, use them on a use whatever, you know? It's just it's so easy once it's in your wallet tokenized like sky's is the limit. >> Yeah. And Eric I mean we ask right like you know who are the winners and we don't need to get into you know on time here but it's just like it's very clear you see unis swap pumping. You see the the the per platforms ripping. You'll see a and morpho start to go on a run. You'll see a drone go on a run. You'll see Kamino from Salana side and Jupiter and Radium go on these runs. Like it's just very clear that uh DJ Spartan's 36month DeFi bare market was probably

more like a 52-month D5 bare market, but that's over. Why? And you said it at the top of, you know, it's this regulatory headwind going from a headwind to a tailwind. And so just thank you for your time, for your insights, for your posting. You've helped me just stay grounded and just be be bullish, be be more bullish, honestly. So, uh, appreciate your time and just your efforts. EIP5 1559 Ethereum. We wouldn't be here without guys like you, man. So, yeah. And thank you for your time. >> Yeah. Thanks, guys. It's awesome. >> See you again soon. Thanks, Eric. Yeah, for sure.